Class analysis...

We are able to have this place to talk about feminism precisely because women and particularly mothers are considered lower status. People think MN is all about prams... because they think that is what women talk about, that is all they talk about, with their lady brains....

I wonder if the people taking the "SAHM have it good" line have actually spent time reading non-FWR threads on Mumsnet and particularly the relationships board. It's a massive eye-opener about what some women are going though in their relationships (and in many cases feel that they have to put up with).

You’ve never heard the word slob?

Fair point. But the social expectations around the roles of women and men in child-rearing and domestic work are different. We might disagree on where those expectations stem from, and whether they are a good or bad thing, but I would assume virtually everyone would agree that the expectations are different.

commenting that she was the ideal candidate for the freedom of speech issue as the Daily Mail would love her as she is a married, SAHM mother of 4.

Do you not understand that this is because women and particularly SAHM are considered lower status.... as in ‘they can’t possibly be threatening they are just a mum’.

I have rarely, if ever, seen that kind of judgement made of a man

You’ve never heard the word slob?

Traditional Conservatives for example of the Rees- Mogg variety would not consider their status to be lower.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Do you really think that? Rees-Mogg (and others like him) thinks women should be SAHM, that’s because he thinks there are woman roles and man roles. It is definitely not because he doesn’t think it is low status.

Also all the ‘privilege’ of being home with kids, ‘easy’ not having a —proper— full-time job?! Well that is a perfect example of exactly what people are talking about re status TBH. I think the numbers of women who really choose to be SAHM are quite small, even if they have chosen to be SAHM they haven’t chosen to be seen as lower status.

Yes I've heard the phrase applied to many things, both for women and men.
I'm sure you're probably right in regards some people, but I would just choose not to associate with those people. Would have no impact on my life. I'm sure many more would look at it as a positive rather than a negative

Many people would, yes. A lot of men would secretly (and in some cases not so secretly) consider your husband to be emasculated by doing "women's work". Heave you never heard the phrase, "Why have a dog and bark yourself"?

More generally, women who has an untidy house and unkempt is considered a slattern. I have rarely, if ever, seen that kind of judgement made of a man.

Why? Do people then look down on me because my DH does 50% of the work. Am I not meeting social expectations?

No, it's to do with differing social expectations on women and men.

Notdavidtenant... Surely that's a choice by the individuals it's not society forcing this on them.

From a health perspective too. Married men Live longer. Single women live longer.

I often think there’s not that much in it for women to be married

There's lots of evidence to show that even where both parents work full-time the woman still does more than half of the child-rearing and domestic work. So the idea that men and women are entering into a reciprocal relationship from positions of equality is plainly bunk.

I can't remember who posted and where but there was a post about Posy Parker (Kelly- Jay) commenting that she was the ideal candidate for the freedom of speech issue as the Daily Mail would love her as she is a married, SAHM mother of 4.

I'm paraphrasing but the gist was Posy's status made her unquestionable.

Yes but that assumes aĺl others are imposing that status

Like my old manager telling me about his new watch that cost £2,000. Apparently other people are incredibly impressed by it. Sadly for him most people think he’s wasted £2,000

But as quentin said above lass status is imposed by others

Yes but that assumes aĺl others are imposing that status.

then they can't get divorced then, can they

If they spilt up

Thinking about your point earlier fms about men and women sharing privilege as a couple. That does happen, you do hear women talk about their partners high status career like it’s their career too. I’ve always though that’s a bit odd.

Do couples share the same privilege status? Don’t know, maybe?

I'm curious about this whole perception of value. Perception to who? Why would I care about perceived value if I'm a SAHM with a DH that earns £25k, how is it going to impact my life?

then they can't get divorced then, can they?

What happens if they get divorced? Who is expected to keep providing for who

If they aren’t married the SAHP is financially screwed.

So fms was talking bollocks. The guy earning £25k may be lower status than other higher earners but not than his wife

Well that’s if you look at the financial position alone. What about the privilege of spending more time with your kids. The privilege of not going to work 5 days a week?

" She is financially dependent on her husband so more vulnerable to abuse."

What happens if they get divorced? Who is expected to keep providing for who?

But status is an externally imposed thing (i.e. it is the perception of other people/society) and SAHMs are lower status than earners

But as quentin said above lass status is imposed by others

So DH does not consider me to be a prostitute, or a burden, or a leech, or the female equivalent of a cocklodger etc

And i bloody dont either

But other people do...specially on here

"Earning is percieved as more valuable than caring."

Depends who you speak to.

Ok, lets break it down.

A man married with kids on 25k a year. Probably in his late 20s early 30s, let's say 30. On 25k a year with 4 mouths to feed. 25k a year at 30 suggests that his salary doesn't scale particularly well.

He might be doing ok for his local area, he is on the average UK salary after all.

Take him out of his local area - a romantic weekend away at London, or a week abroad somewhere. Get speaking to another couple at the hotel bar and the chances of him being outearned and outshone by the other person/couple increase significantly.

That higher earning couple is far more likely to see themselves as being higher status than him, and probably as likely to have just as much respect for the wife who's running a household of 4 on his "average" wage

Someone even quoted this at me ""behind every great man there is a great woman"? as if it was a "Gotcha!"

GREAT MAN THERE IS A GREAT WOMAN!

Not "less great, less good woman" A GREAT WOMAN

I think that phrase reflects that marriages/relationships ideally are reciprocal arrangements where both parties are working together and constantly negotiating the parameters/expectations of what is necessary to maintain a happy and healthy relationship

But no, according to this forum it's just patriarchy enabled men selling women into the salt mines

The SAHM is financially vulnerable and has less economic power. On the question of status I don't agree with your blanket status that all SAHMs have low status in society. It is more nuanced than that. Unless you think status is only determined by economic power.

Traditional Conservatives for example of the Rees- Mogg variety would not consider their status to be lower.