Class analysis...

it suits current western politics to pretend that it is all about individuals

Because classes have power. And we must stop knowing that.

This.

i think the conflation of class analysis and identity politics is really being used against feminists. its a great way to divide women who might otherwise have been fighting together for better treatment.

if you can dismiss women who are white, because identity politics, you are silencing the voices of women who might be able to use the benefits that come with being in a more powerful class to help ALL women.

Because it's out of fashion at the moment and it suits current western politics to pretend that it is all about individuals.

Because classes have power. And we must stop knowing that..

patriarchypersonified i really agree with your post

i meet lots of people who don't understand it! hence the constant need to NAMALT both online and IRL.

and whilst i think i understand it, i don't know if i spend enough time thinking about the implications of being in one of the more powerful classes: does that confer a responsibility on me for instance? and if it does how best to act on that?

I don't find it difficult to understand and sometimes its very useful to talk in terms of class analysis without a whole lot of whataboutery.

However, I don't always find it relevant or helpful. Sometimes the discussion really is about individuals within a group who do not personally have the privilege normally associated with that group and sometimes the discussion turns into a silly top trumps with peoples lives.

I think the problem isn't a lack of education. Most people understand that you can look at something as a characteristic of a collective, and as a characteristic of an individual.

However anyone who knows anything about critical thinking can tell you that these are very different things.

The problem with identity politics is that it routinely conflates the two.

The other issue is that it uses the identity of the person making the argument as a way to attack that argument itself.

For example if a white person critiques white privilege or a man talks about The Patriarchy, their identity in itself becomes grounds to invalidate their argument. "You can't say that, your not black/a woman, so shut up and listen to those who know better"

This is a logical fallacy (ad hominem) and doesn't address the argument. If a black person/women came along and made the exact same argument, where would the rebuttal be?

Class analysis is a really useful tool. Like all tools there are times when it is appropriate to use it, and times when it is not. But most times you get the best results when using it to some degree, and in conjunction with other tools.

I don't know that I've ever met anyone who can't understand class analysis, but that doesn't stop them on occasion thinking it isn't the best tool for the job, or perhaps that it is being given undue weight in a particular argument or situation.

But it doesn’t help anything g or anyone.

"White people as a class have more power than black people as a class."

That’s true.

lol ok, sure I am

Oh good. Yes you are. That was easy.

Excellent. @fmsfms must have the key to @BertrandRussell's question!

fmsfms pleaae could you explain what your problem is with this statement?

"White people as a class have more power than black people as a class."

Is it that you think Bertrand is trying to say ALL individual white people are more powerful than ALL black people so the statement seems wrong?

Or do you think it's never valid to look at group behaviour?

Or does it irritate you as it feels lime she's having a go at you?

Or something else?

I'm genuinely intetested.

"Class analysis doesn’t say it is. At all. That’s why the phrase ‘as a class’ is used .... You’re missing the point"

lol ok, sure I am

What does identity politics have for them?

Someone to blame.

But there are vast post industrial areas in the uk where the population is overwhelmingly white - and people are impoverished, there are no jobs, grass grows between the paving slabs in the high street.

What does identity politics have for them?

Judge people as individuals not as members of their group identity.

How can you possibly do an analysis of society, trends, patterns, predictions, likelihoods, etc, etc, if you only look at myriad individuals?

Your statement isn't true for every white person at an individual level.

Class analysis doesn’t say it is. At all. That’s why the phrase ‘as a class’ is used and why #namalt makes people roll their eyes. You’re missing the point. Even I know that, and my level of sociology is pretty basic.

Judge people as individuals not as members of their group identity. Your statement isn't true for every white person at an individual level.

This is class analysis, not pomo everyone is an individual and so there can be no class analysis.
You can look up the term outlier, fms, if you want to understand what we are talking about.

So do I Bowlofbabelfish - but a lot of people don't.

"White people as a class have more power than black people as a class."

Judge people as individuals not as members of their group identity. Your statement isn't true for every white person at an individual level.

Identity politics does provide a warm virtuous glow for any student who wants to set working class people right on where they are on the totem pole of victimhood.

I feel we are forgetting the history of the working class people of the British isles. How they fought for pay, for suffrage, how they suffered and starved and how the industrial revolution was forged on the backs of working class men, women and children.

And even that may well be considered a right wing point of view these days

Because not everyone is interested or has the aptitude for social science

I’m a science (molecules and whatnot) scientist so while I’m interested I’m aware this is not my field at all and that my understanding is limited.

I am interested though, because the more I read about the issues that affect women in general the more I want to understand about the politics, sociology etc. I think it’s inportant.,

Here is the paper on Intersectionality. It is US centric because that was the circumstance of the discrimination against the woman she was faced with at the time.
www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mapping-margins.pdf

The fact is that racial tribalism is not unique to the US, so it is an useful analysis elsewhere. There is only the one human race but the tribalism intersects with socioeconomic class everywhere.

Because not everyone is interested or has the aptitude for social science.

Because current identity politics is simple - you put everyone in a little box and rank them on a totem pole of worthiness and victimhood.

Class analysis requires looking at more than just the class, but also at how that interacts with society at large and other classes. Was it you on the other thread who made the analogy with poor white boys performing badly at school in Sunderland? They have white privilege but they are also poor, and disadvantaged by social class (the other type of class) and that white advantage isn’t big enough in that specific context to overcome the disadvantages of the class of poverty.

In short, identity politics is much easier, requires no critical thought and allows an instant warm glow of victimhood and being right.

Also good luck trying to get some of the men on here to acknowledge that men as a class are violent. You’ve more chance of winning the lotto.