Class analysis...

"If you don't think that academic theories have been behind much of society and technology progress, well that's bizarre. No link between theories of atoms and evolution to bombs and genetic understanding of illness? Wow."

Dear god, this/you are incredible

Do you know the difference between scientific facts that enable technological progress - eg things that can be proven and utilised/harnessed eg laws of physics etc

vs acdemic theories like intersectionality that can't be proven, only debated????

Dear god, how I wish this forum had a block feature

"I am attempting to repeat your meaning using different words so that you can more easily understand if I have misinterpreted you."

Stop rephrasing my posts and the chances of straw manning almost disappear

Me referencing the impact/effect of academics has no relation the activism of the suffragettes.

See how you've derailed the discussion by forcing me to explain this to you?

Is English your first language? (genuine question based on your grammar)

If you don't think that academic theories have been behind much of society and technology progress, well that's bizarre. No link between theories of atoms and evolution to bombs and genetic understanding of illness? Wow.

Someone somewhere had an abstract thought that women were not inferior to men and should be allowed to vote. Women talked about it. They exchanged ideas and theorised. The suffragettes did not arise from a vacuum.

But I am pretty sure you do understand this which is why you like to derail and stir.

Fmsfms Hint. When I start " so you are saying" I am not straw manning. I am attempting to repeat your meaning using different words so that you can more easily understand if I have misinterpreted you.

What I actually said:

" Peoples lives have massively improved in the last 120 years for lots of reasons: technological and scientific advancements for one....

I find it hard to believe that academic theories like intersectionality have made anywhere near as big a contribution.

Or even that class analysis has been responsible for Western societies gradually becoming more progressive."

What @midgebabe thinks I said: "women would have been given the right to vote without the actions of {women } fighting for the rights of {women } to have the vote?"

Me saying that I don't think academics/academic theories are massively responsible for the huge progress in last 120 years has been misrepresented to mean that I think the suffragettes and other similar movements were unnecessary because women would have got the vote anyway

No-one is talking about ‘all people’ or ‘all members’ of the identified class

Well it sounded like Bertrand did.

I said

"Well a lot of men aren’t really in a position to decrease other men’s violence"

And she responded

Really? I can think of several things straight away

Fmsfms good luck opening the 'Rape Culture' can of worms. I've had that one several times on here and it always boils down to the following argument:

Do some women in the UK get raped? Yes. Therefore we live in a Rape Culture.

No nuance or thought is allowed.

The position is emotional/ideological and therefore beyond logic and reason.

I even had one memorable exchange with a poster where they refused to draw a distinction between attitudes and behaviours towards rape and rapists in the UK, and countries in which rape is routinely used as a weapon of war.

Speaks volumes about the capacity for actual discussion on any subject to take place at all.

@midgebabe "So fmsfms thinks that women would have been given the right to vote without the actions of {women } fighting for the rights of {women } to have the vote? "

Haven't we had enough of straw men:

Little hint, if you have to start your post with "so you're saying" or "so you think" then you're probably straw manning

No-one is talking about ‘all people’ or ‘all members’ of the identified class.

That’s identity politics that does that. As has been said many times.

Hmm. The nice middle class man who hit my daughter only lost a few friends over the incident

I’m so sorry that happened. I was using a very lazy stereotype simply to illustrate that not all people / men are violent or even associate with violent people. If your work colleague is secretly a wife beater but hides this very well, how do you challenge it?

I agree with a lot of class analysis but I think you are putting too much responsibility on individuals.

Maybe they don’t increase it, but they normalize it. It becomes part of the society we live in

I disagree. If this violence were becoming part of the society we live in surely we would see some kind of increase in violence.
I think been a peak in violence in London but no one is suggesting this is due to TV, films or gaming (I think it’s drugs but I’m no expert).

Beachcomber

So my post is misogynistic?! It shows that I hate women?

And it 'appropriates oppression'?

Are you just saying words related to social justice?

It makes a comparison, a very valid and pertinent comparison.

See my earlier point re: Special Pleading.

So fmsfms thinks that women would have been given the right to vote without the actions of {women } fighting for the rights of {women } to have the vote?

Or perhaps fmsfms thinks that giving the women the right to vote was a backwards step for society?

Fmsfms is giving me some great laughs these days.

The nice middle class man who hit my daughter only lost a few friends over the incident............

So they did inflict the only social reprisal they are permitted. What would you have preferred? You've ruled out violence. Do you think violent people respond to a stern talking telling off?

"What is your point? Are you denying the existence of rape culture?"

Yes 1000000000000%

Stop supporting films, games and magazines and other media outlets that glorify male violence

Very little evidence that violent video games / films increase RL violence.

Speak out when their friends, family and colleagues excuse male violence

The class of naice middle class men who don’t see people excusing male violence. What can they do? There’s nothing for them to speak out against.

Take an active role in raising their sons to reject violence

Totally agree

Stop hitting people, and thinking that hitting people is ever a solution

And if they are of the class of men that don’t hit? Continue as normal?

Genuinely a lot of people aren’t in a position of power to stop others violence. The culture needs to change, people who are in a position of power must take the lead on this. There needs to be a cultural change but asking people to effect change when they have very little power often gets their backs up.

fmsfms.

What is your point? Are you denying the existence of rape culture?

PatriarchyPersonified.

I'm feeling patient so I'm going to spell this out for you. My objection is not that your point is offensive alone. It is that your point is offensive because it is misogynistic.

You are attempting to create a false equivalence. A misogynistic one.

Do you understand what supremacist society is and how it functions? Your posts suggest not.

For your offensive and misogynistic point to not be offensive and misogynistic there would need to be instutionalised female supremacy. This is clearly not the case and a stupid point to attempt to argue. Also you are appropriating one minority's oppression (people of colour) in order to police another oppressed minority (girls and women).

There is an obvious difference between treating an unknown stranger who belongs to a more powerful class than you warily until you do know them, and assuming that he (as an individual) is definitely more likely do you harm.

Black men in the American South in the 1920s had good reason to treat unknown white men warily. That was not "prejudice", it was justified caution with regard to personal safety.

Class analysis is not useless unless you apply it niaively. Without it we would never have noticed that poor lads in Sunderland are getting a raw deal.

No Bertrand, it was someone else misinterpreting .it may have helped to be specific about who I was replying too, sorry.

As an aside, This whole thread is really helping my organise my thoughts so thanks for starting it