Class analysis...

What I intended to say tht if men (as a class) accepted the analysis

Why do you care so much that men accept the analysis? I’m assuming your goal is to reduce and eventually stop male violence, an excellent aim.

It very much sounds like class analysis simply isn’t resonating as a method for convincing men of the importance of reducing violence (I think that this is kind of the reason you started this thread).

When something isn’t working maybe the best thing is to try something different.

No, but you can ask that they support sensible social policy that joins up safeguarding frameworks, legal protections, a criminal justice system, education system and cultural understanding that has the aim of minimising such violent acts

Absolutely you can ask people to do this. But the argument

“you are a man and as such a member of the class that causes the most violence. Therefore you should support these policies”

Doesn’t seem to be resonating. The arguement.

“Some (a lot of) men commit appalling acts of violence and we believe this policies will reduce this violent culture. Please support us”

Might win more support.

Class analysis is useful but I don’t think it’s winning any hearts and minds.

"But that is not what your "White people as a class....." statement says."

It's not my statement, it's yours. You are the person that started this topic are you not?

"White people as a class have more power than black people as a class"

It's exactly what it says

You can’t ask people to stop violent acts that they have nothing to do with.

No, but you can ask that they support sensible social policy that joins up safeguarding frameworks, legal protections, a criminal justice system, education system and cultural understanding that has the aim of minimising such violent acts.

Back to statements like "men as a class are more violent than women as a class"

Well we’ve already talked about this. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that statement on its own it’s very much true. I’ve been lazy and copied and pasted a previous post.

You said
I also find the fact that many men won't accept that "as a class men are more violent than women as a class" (AACMAMVTWAAC) Incredibly frustrating because it means they can wash their hands and carry on, rather than doing what they can to change it. Men have the power to make society so much better yet they (as a class) choose not to

Well you are talking about an individuals take on your class analysis (which isn’t about individuals). So you can see why the class analysis gets misinterpreted at the individual level.

It sounds like you are asking them to take responsibility for and prevent acts of violence they have nothing to do with.

Like some people blaming the Muslim faith for a terror attack. Why didn’t Muslims do more to stop extremism etc. Well most of the 2 million Muslims in this country don’t know anyone linked with extremism.
You can’t ask people to stop violent acts that they have nothing to do with.

Or "White people as a class have more power than black people as a class"

Britain is 87% white. Mass immigration to the UK only started after WW2.

There is nothing controversial or systemically racist about a historically white and majority white Country having more white people in positions of power or authority than other ethnicities.

In an equal multicultural society then we should strive for equality of opportunity, but this isn't going to happen overnight or even for several generations

Back to the original post you asked

Class analysis..... Why do people find it so difficult

I’m thinking it’s probably a mix of things. Sometimes it’s not nuanced enough. Sweeping statements about people’s privilege, when in actual fact they have very little privilegegeta people’s backs up.

Also this class analysis comes from an educated privilege group. And it’s pretty jarring to be told you enjoy privilege from someone vastly more privileged than you.

Some key quotes from this article: www.the-american-interest.com/2018/05/24/atonement-as-activism/

"Today’s consciousness-raising on race is less about helping black people than it is about white people seeking grace."

"This brand of self-flagellation has become the new form of enlightenment on race issues. It qualifies as a kind of worship; the parallels with Christianity are almost uncannily rich. White privilege is the secular white person’s Original Sin"

I touched upon the above elsewhere in this thread when someone claimed that enlightenment ideals like truth, reason and logic were just ways for the Patriarchy to enforce its control.

The enlightenment and the birth of liberalism were meant to liberate us from ideas like original sin, but its increasingly taken up by the Regressive Left of today, just rebranded for the "woke" generation

" I was trying to explain that privilege still exists, even within disadvantaged groups. So a homeless man is in a “better” position than a homeless woman- even though they are both in a crap situation."

I know what you were trying to do, doubling down on the homeless example isn't going to convince me lol

"To make matters worse people who generally do class analysis are educated and privileged."

Yeah, something about kids at Ivy League/Oxbridge claiming they're oppressed definitely does not add up.

What is JP says about people born in the west already being in the top 1% globally, and kids at elite schools being in the upper echelons of that top 1%

what's wrong with that statement

I’m assuming you mean the So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man statement.

Honestly it’s like looking at two starving people, one black one white. The black person has nine grains of rice and the white person has ten. You then tell the white person that this means they are a bit more privileged than the black person.

To make matters worse people who generally do class analysis are educated and privileged. So you are telling the white person they are privileged compared to the black person whilst tucking into a roast dinner with all the trimmings.

Class analysis is really useful but in this particular situation it’s unhelpful at best.

and the constant questioning of my sex

Yes the irony in arguing that the trans agenda is the erasure and shutting up of women yet doing this seems to escape some posters. You can"t be a woman because you don't have opinions they approve of as sufficiently womanlike. It is not a tactic Bertrand uses.

Vis a vis homelessness, intersectionality as a class analysis would focus on who has become or is more likely to become homeless and why, and what institutional structures and legislative blindspots affect this.

Vis a vis homelessness, intersectionality in its corrupted pomo sense would focus on the "lived experience" of homelessness and assign various subjective oppression points.

Two very different things.

Except under your intersectional model of class privilege he can claim oppression points for being trans.

I don't have an intersectional model in the third wave, pomo sense. What makes you think I have? Why do you describe it as my model? What did you think I meant by despite current feminine presentation? Can you read?

Intersectionality is a term coined by legal scholar Kimberle Crenshaw to refer to societal power structures as wielded by legislation and institutions. I subscribe to that, original, model, not the identifarian one. It has a class analysis and and an examination of power relations. Therefore relevant to this thread.

"Same goes for someone like Shon Faye, whose current feminine presentation is far outweighed by the mountain of privilege enjoyed by dint of being born male and white, and getting an elite private school to Oxbridge education."

Except under your intersectional model of class privilege he can claim oppression points for being trans.

"And a homeless man has more privilege than a homeless woman."

Oh dear again. It really doesn't help your argument to keep focusing on the privilege levels of people literally on one of the lowest, if not lowest rungs of society.

This really shouldn't need explaining

Just putting this in again as it refers back to the original question.

Class analysis..... Why do people find it so difficult

Possibly because it can lead to statements like

So a white homeless man is privileged compared to a black homeless man

Class analysis is really useful but nuance is needed.