Class analysis...

Seriously, why do you think people see racism is wrong now?

Because obviously they haven’t always.

I suggested some of the things that men could do earlier, in no particular order. I try to do the equivalent things as a white woman in an attempt to combat racism. (not the same things, obviously - equivalent things)

So are you seriously suggesting that individual members of a group are required (morally?) to take personal action to remedy their group's failings even if they are personally blameless as individuals? Are they morally culpable if they refuse to do so? And do you make that demand of any group other than men, and if not, why not?

Or if you ignore just one class then us females become the most violent class... With a rising trend also... Or are we just ignoring that. Should I be doing something about it, it is my class after all. what can I do?

Bertrand I respect your opinion on here and while I don't always agree with you, I listen to what you have to say.

I have lost track of where you are going with this thread. I'm sorry, it's not very clear anymore exactly what you are saying.

Why do people now see racism and understand it ‘is wrong’

Probably Martin Luther Kings inspirational speech “I Have a Class Analysis” stirring stuff

Although if simply knowing that you belong to the class of people who commit most of the violence doesn’t make you want to do something about it then there doesn’t seem to be much hope

Seriously, just imagine trying to apply this standard to any other group whose members have been know to commit crime and violence - it would be denounced as hateful bigotry, and rightly so.

Why do people now see racism and understand it ‘is wrong’?

Amazing how the purveyors of class analysis can end up sounding an awful lot like Donald Trump. Let's imagine this speech by his female counterpart, Donaldina:

"When Men send their people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people".

"Donaldina J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Men entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on!"

Well, as a concerned citizen, I'm not sure about this woolly liberal "some are good people" stuff, Donaldina - what are you, some kind of man-lover?

Although if simply knowing that you belong to the class of people who committ most of the violence doesn’t make you want to do something about it then there doesn’t seem to be much hope

We discussed this earlier, if you aren’t a violent person there isn’t actually much you can do stop stop other men hitting people. Especially when it’s behind closed doors and is secret.

I’m white and therefore part of the class that causes racism. Knowing that I’m part of that class doesnt pursuade me that racism needs to be reduced. The fact that racism is wrong is way more convincing than some explaining via class analysis which group I belong to.

That wasn't my intention. What I intended to say tht if men (as a class) accepted the analysis, it would be reasonable to expect them to do whatever they could in their own lives to change stuff that wi make things better for everyone. As individuals they will be able to do less or more-but as a class there is lots they could do

Sorry Bertrand I'm puzzled too for the same reasons set out by ConstantlyCold

Very few people dispute that men are more violent than women. Individual men can and do choose not to be violent. Some men go further by becoming more actively involved or campaigning or calling out behaviour.

I'm struggling to see what "men as a class" could do- what does that even mean?

Individual men can behave better- the behaviour of good men may influence others.

I agree with ConstantlyCold's points.

Going back to fsm's point about being challenged that she isn't a woman has made me think of this issue of "class" is a very blunt tool if it results in women being told by other women that they don't meet the criteria of being in the class of women (not that you do that)

Bertrand

I confess I’m baffled

And it's not as if I'm suggesting men should do anything more than live civilised, empathetic, aware, decent lives

From what I’ve understood from your position. You want to decrease and then stop violence (the vast majority of which is carried out by men). I agree with this.

Where we differ is that you seem to think class analysis should be usful in persuading people to stop violence.
I however remain unconvinced that a discussion of class analysis is at all beneficial. It’s just not going to win any hearts and minds.

"Can you explain to me why men (as a class) won't want to do things which only they can do that will make society better for everyone?"

"I also find the fact that many men won't accept that "as a class men are more violent than women as a class" (AACMAMVTWAAC) Incredibly frustrating because it means they can wash their hands and carry on, rather than doing what they can to change it. Men have the power to make society so much better yet they (as a class) choose not to"

This is starting to sound a lot like the Munroe Bergdorf style "white fragility" nonsense - the idea that if you're not actively trying to dismantle the structures of racism then you're not helping and therefore guilty of racism

If you are looking to class analysis to give you, as an individual, a box to fit in then you are quite frankly totally misunderstanding it.

What it does give you is an understanding that there are other people who you may have common cause with or that there are other people with different class based issues that you need to be mindful of.

You've created the confusion yourself Bertrand

Men 'as a group' are more violent than women 'as a group'.

But no 'individual' man can take responsibility for the group as a collective. Therefore if they already do the things you want them to do, then what do you suggest?

The power dynamics of class are totally utterly different to an individual’s experience because a person never belongs to just one class do they.

I’m a white British woman who had a middle class but abusive childhood, I have a disability, I am a carer for my disabled child and am poor. All the intersections of these various things is quite important for me as an individual but it would be utterly ridiculous for me to start saying ‘class analysis doesn’t capture nuance, my life isn’t a privileged one so white privilege doesnt exist’

It is class analysis not oppression olympics. It does mean I can begin to understand myself in relation to others though.

What you are essentially saying is class analysis shouldn’t be used for purposes that are not analysis of class....

Well... it’s you that has been doing that every time you have said things like ‘but these white people who have other class disadvantages have crappy outcomes’....

And people are like ‘well... yeah, what is your actual point?’

I think it’s you that is identifying everything as a nail TBH...

We're not in "if only you asked nicely" territory, are we

No we are in you are using the wrong tool territory.

Like you are doing some diy. You need to saw some wood in half. Your favourite tool is a hammer so you start bashing the wood. When it doesn’t work you question why the wood isn’t in two bits yet.

The hammer is a good tool it’s just not useful when it comes to sawing wood.

‘White’ and ‘poor’ are classes... unfortunately in this article they are using ‘white’ in place of ‘English as a first language’ but meh...

Class analysis has given them language to describe the conditions of the people at this intersection.

Without understanding that there are classes would you even be able to see this intersection?

It doesn’t offer any information about why this is so...

It is highly likely that this is attributable to economic class being more important than racial class/nationality in Britain because being poor is treated as a moral defect here.

You keep talking about nuance but nuance is entirely irrelevant because it’s a class analysis. It’s not ‘those working class kids better shut up because at least they are white’...

Constantlycold - what do you actually think that article is telling you?