Sophie Walker on criminalising the men who buy sex in the Guardian

Not following your logic here. Is it that you think you're not included in category Woman with the rest of "us", or that you think you're the mythical Cool Girl whom men, as a planet-wide collective, don't think of as three holes and two tits?

Up to you - you can use the typical rad fem language like that which engages no one other than your fellow rad fems - which is what ahe was doing in the passages I quoted or you could use the language and arguments that is on the "We don't buy it" website.

Always the assumption that we live in, oh IDK, a hand woven lentil cave or something, and have no experience of the subject matter.
Every. fucking. thread.

"My objection to prostitution is not because I think I live in a world where the threat of violence keeps me in my place. My objection is that prostitution creates a coarse and brutalised society, a less civilsed society for all of us - but the persons who suffer are the "them" not the 'us'"

Not following your logic here. Is it that you think you're not included in category Woman with the rest of "us", or that you think you're the mythical Cool Girl whom men, as a planet-wide collective, don't think of as three holes and two tits?

Really Vicky? You reckon many 16yos, trafficked from Vietnam, Macedonia and Nigeria, contribute there then?

If you are interested in what prostitutes really think and not what feminist say about them look at there website.
Prostitutes collective.net.

Queenofquacks- my apologies. I am just sick of guardian hacks culling MN for column inches (as much, if not more than DM).

UghNotTerfNotCis Twitter really is a sewer. Those comments span the full spectrum of misogyny from lefty brocislist to alt right

Pop up brothels are increasingly using trafficked women.

Criminalising the men who use prostitutes is part of the Nordic Model.

Excellent article.

Not one woman can be free and equal to men so long as any woman is sold by and to them. As long as we normalise the idea that “some” women can be ordered and thrown about like a product from Amazon, then all women live in a world where the threat of violence keeps us in our place.

“You must ask yourself, what are they buying? It’s power. It’s a very powerful thing to have control of somebody’s body in that way. It’s a power fix and they know it.”

I do agree with some of the comments that these statements are poor arguments.

So far as the first it ignores the small but equally vulnerable numbers of boys and young men in prostitution. I think the case is stronger if it acknowledges that prostitution creates a class of people who it is acceptable to hire for sex. A them and us.

The second part of the sentence doesn't logically follow. My objection to prostitution is not because I think I live in a world where the threat of violence keeps me in my place. My objection is that prostitution creates a coarse and brutalised society, a less civilsed society for all of us - but the persons who suffer are the "them" not the "us"

So far as the second , whilst I don't discount the power element it is the power to have sex with no constraints, no obligation to the other person. I am not convinced that any punter would say or recognise it is a power fix. It is too easy to say "no, it's just sex" and that loses credibility.

This on the other hand was one of the standout idiotic comments
If someone enjoys sex and is in full control of the situation and is well paid for their actions it seems perfectly logical to assume they would be happy to get paid for doing it

Do men really not understand that even for the most (for want of a better word) promiscuous woman enjoying sex still requires a bloke they fancy? Owning a working penis really isn't enough.

And tbh most people aren't particularly attractive. I mean most people do find a partner who they think is lovely even if the rest of the world doesn't see it. But the number of men a woman is likely to meet who are so attractive that without knowing anything about them or getting to know them, she will think "yeah I'll shag him" is miniscule.

NotTerfNorCis
Lots of men in the comments arguing that you can't get rid of something by criminalising it, so why bother.

That feels like the exact opposite of 'but violence towards women is illegal so what do you want me, as a non violent man, to do about it?'

What men are saying on Twitter:

"sexwork prohibitionists tend to be abortion prohibitionists too. They both have a lot in common afterall."

"Good luck ending the oldest profession."

"Absolute garbage is what the Nordic model is. Not only it's illogical impractical and downright stupid, but totally unjust from a legal & ethical perspective when you only criminalise the buyer."

"You seem so horribly ill informed and against the free choice of those who choose to earn a living this way."

"Aren't you pro choice? An adult woman or man or whichever can choose what to do with their bodies."

"Perhaps if you supported a wider acceptance of prostitution in soceity at large, the public might be better able to assist in shutting down sex trafficking."

"men are not buying power, they are buying sex.[...] This entire piece is full of these miscomprehensions"

"Don't worry. Thanks to Feminist provoked decreas of Marriage Institution and flourishing Slut Culture with huge numbers of Sexually Available women this demand will soon end Naturally."

Rachel Moran is another amazing woman lifting the veil on the abuse of women via prostitution.

www.pri.org/stories/2015-10-01/after-seven-years-dublin-sex-trade-rachel-moran-says-prostitution-always-abuse

Lots of men in the comments arguing that you can't get rid of something by criminalising it, so why bother.

If that's the case, why do we have laws at all?

Not one woman can be free and equal to men so long as any woman is sold by and to them. As long as we normalise the idea that “some” women can be ordered and thrown about like a product from Amazon, then all women live in a world where the threat of violence keeps us in our place.

Yep.

Started reading the comments and got depressed.
You'd think only men had disabilities. Buying a woman for a disabled man as a "treat" like buying a bottle of champagne is so dehumanising and depressing.
It's the "right to have sex" and sex as a bodily function like eating argument. All men should have the right to a woman's body. Makes me hate men, tries to calm down before going to bed with husband who says he's never visited a prostitute.

I wondered if Soul Mates had introduced a prostitution section when I read it.
I would have zero respect for a man who paid for sex. I don't understand how civilised societies can consider this an OK thing to do. Ok some men can't get partners but there's always masturbation, and it is all about power.
Prostitution is one issue that makes me think gender isn't all socialisation though as very very few women would pay for sex or get turned on by a man they knew was only there because you had paid him to be. Passionless, sex as a shopping item sounds yuk and boring.
I should probably say sex rather than gender though as I suspect transwomen are more in to prostitution than transmen as well and it's more a genetic thing, plus it being more acceptable for men to buy sex and women are more prepared/ desperate to sell themselves and be degraded.

Thanks Lass for that information. I must get in touch with my MP

I've emailed the SNP via the general contact address on the party website. I'll let you know what response I get.

I was reading the Amnesty International policy on decriminalisation. I can understand the arguments for decriminalising the selling of sex but the arguments for decriminalising the buying of sex seem so pathetically weak. Then I found out from Mumsnet about how AI’s draft policy was proposed by an AI member who runs escort agencies in the north east. That explains a lot.

I can understand many of the points being made by mumsnetters about the transgender debate but legalising the actions of punters and pimps will be much worse for women’s rights. It would be a disaster, but i can imagine it happening. It’s scary.

In my experience, in social situations, it is much more acceptable to talk about this issue than the gender issue. We can make people aware of it without making them angry or dismissive. I’m talking to people now. I don’t want to fall asleep on this issue and wake up in a time when feminists are being abused and deleted for saying that men don’t have the right to abuse women.

It's amazing how many men in the comments aren't agreeing.

I'm not. I thought right wing sexism was bad but it's nothing compared to the virulent misogyny you get from right on lefty blokes.

Brilliant article from Sophie Walker. Despite some of the failings of the WEP, I think they are doing great work.

Thanks Lass for that information. I must get in touch with my MP.

Great article. Couldn't agree more.

What about women who buy sex

I would have just as much contempt for them as I have for male punters. Assuming that other than the older women who apparently go on sex tourism trips to Gambia I'm not sure they exist.

I suspect if women who buy sex exist it is probably in the context of some sort of "sugar mummy" relationship rather than visiting a brothel. Still wrong.

Hmmph. First and last attempt at strike through. Serves me right, it’s annoying AF anyway. Bah.

The comments are bloody depressing. So many —men— people seem to believe that there is such a thing as a ‘right’ to sex.