Is this really a feminist board?

No need to distinguish any further than transwomen and women.

Still, I remain in constant awe of people who twist the facts so spectacularly.

Bowlofbabelfish
Ah ah... come now. Threats of suicide are a means of control. Do as I want, validate me or I’ll kill myself. Hysterical, abusive, cowardly. The stats on trans suicide have been debunked.
I actually referred to people who did not threaten suicide, but chose transition as a better option. As for "debunked" — I presume you mean you've managed to dredge up some dodgy report from the standard list of antitrans propaganda sources.

Am I an isomer, or a genetic control element in proximity to the gene I control? No? Then the phrase is nonsense. And grossly offensive. There’s no such thing as a cis woman. I’m a woman. Would you refer to a black women as ‘not white?’ If you did you’d be framing her as the lack of something, as a non-entity as a default. And she’d be quite within her rights to express her displeasure.

"Cis-" is a prefix, used in many fields other than chemistry. It is not offensive. "Trans" means "not cis", just as "cis" means "not trans" — perfectly symmetrical, and not offensive.

It’s woman. There’s no such thing as a cis woman.
There is: there are about 33 million cis-women in this country alone. Ofcourse, we could say "There is no such thing as transwoman: it's woman" — but that would make any sort of discussion difficult where we need to distinguish between transwomen and ciswomen.
Unless, of course, thetis your intention — to shut down discussion?

Maria MacLachlan was guilty of nothing. She was the victim.

Tara Wolf was convicted, and fined for assault. And now has a criminal record.

Bowlofbabelfish
The court records clearly show that a woman was attacked by a group of men.

It’s not feminists doing the attacking and beating. Step out of your bubble and read the impartial reporting.

Here's some "impartial reporting":- (from the Evening Standard):
Ms Maclachlan, who blogs and tweets about gender issues, admitted grabbing hold of Wolf's girlfriend and kicking her,

However, Judge Grant refused to grant Ms Maclachlan any compensation, saying: "Compensation would not be appropriate,

The Judge also commented on Ms MacLachlan's offensive language in court.

Ereshkigal
I think you meant to say, the male thugs who beat a woman in Hyde Park. For which one was convicted. DARVO. We see you.

No, I meant what I wrote.

Here's some of what the Evening Standard said about the court case:-

Ms Maclachlan, who blogs and tweets about gender issues, admitted grabbing hold of Wolf's girlfriend and kicking her,

However, Judge Grant refused to grant Ms Maclachlan any compensation, saying: "Compensation would not be appropriate,

Bowlofbabelfish
The TRA lobby wants to remove the requirement for a gender dysphroria diagnosis. What they want is de medicalisation Of transgender status - and when that happens then there will be no need to fund gender clinics.
No. It means that people can get a GRC just as easily as they can already get a driving licence. It has nothing whatsoever to dowiththe medical/psychological supporter those suffering from a medical/psychological condition.

And I know this is a bit whatabouty, and two wrongs don’t make a right, so forgive me for that, but it’s always striking me when treatment access is demanded...... massive wait times for female complaints are so common it’d be a joke (if it wasnt a tragedy.) 8 years I think on average to be even diagnosed with endometriosis.

That is due to GPs failing to recognise the symptoms.
Not quite the same issue as GPs refusing refer because of their "religious"principles (i.e. illegal discrimination). And definitely not the same issue as people actively campaigning for people to be denied access to the possibility of diagnosis — a particular problem in the case of young transpeople.

I haven't seen any articles in the press expressing outrage that "children as young's FIVE have been referred to a specialist" for any other kind of diagnostic process.

@ErrolTheDragon :) That's very nicely put, and good advice to anyone who wants to create a good impression here.

Variety is the curse and blessing of these boards, and any man posting here must seem like a polar bear disguised as a penguin to some of the other, more cautious penguins.

As a non-female, my motives and presence are under question, directly or indirectly, every time I post, from anyone in the room. (maybe a polar bear with a big flashing light on his head?)

If I felt like all I ever did here was continually justify my presence, I wouldn't post. Like you, though, I don't owe anyone anything here. If I upset some people's game of 'private women's space' from time to time then that does genuinely bother me, and I try to be considerate, but there's only so much faux-outrage I can handle. Actually, I dislike that "serious, sensitive issues" are waved about or thrown in my face like weapons sometimes. It doesn't change my opinion of the issues, but it does make it harder to respect the poster. I start seeing them as students instead of real people, and it brings out the worst in me which isn't very nice but is fun. If me being me or being here is unacceptable on a public website, then I suggest we need 2 internets.

LaSqrrl
Because I am a post op, MtoF transsexual, with a GRC. But whenever I have tried to say anything — even if it is a simple fact, not a matter of opinion — I have been bombarded with hate. And the facts go on being ignored. It's almost as though I am watching some bizarre competition to see who can be the terfiest terf of all.

^I had to run that through the radfem translator, I got:
"Because I am A Genuine Transwoman™ and have a piece of paper. Whenever I express the view that I deserve to claim womanhood more than you (because paper) I get bombarded with actual women who disagree with me! It's like I am watching a bunch of uppity women, trying to be the most uppity, and it hurts my feels."^

Shame you can't understand plain English. Maybe that's the root of your problems.
But what I meant is that I have lived with the reality of being trans everyday of my life. I have gone through the system, from the initial feelings of self-doubt and internal transphobia, suppression, counselling, waiting lists (and more waiting lists), RLT, electrolysis, name-change, HRT, GRS, and GRC. I don't know every last detail of the whole process, but it's pretty safe bet that I know a lot more about it than most people — especially those who have chosen to be transphobic.

And I have never "express[ed] the view that I deserve to claim womanhood more than you".

The focus on this board is Them, and not Me, but I don't believe many care to differentiate. There is no Transphobia here, but there is also no trust, or willingness to exchange or engage

There are some trans posters who are trusted and with whom there seems to be plenty of willingness to exchange and engage. OTOH, there are also plenty posters (mainly women) who sometimes get up peoples noses for some reason, or are disagreed with on some points. And there a a few regular male contributors, some of whom get on fine here, others who mansplain/sea lion and end up dominating threads who people get pissed off with. I think you're experiencing a variety of these types of responses... it's up to you if you want to think about whether you might want to adjust your posting style to get more constructive engagement on a feminist board?

My post wasn't intended specifically for Bowl (sorry Bowl) but generally.

No worries lass - I wasn’t aware there was a hysteria thread. I know it’s a loaded word.

That MIL thread on AIBU, the MIL has threatened suicide and the DH in question is frantic with worry, and so will probably come to heel. Suicide is a terrible, terrible thing to threaten and yes, in that context and with the loud demands that one must be validated at all costs, the shutting down of criticism with the threat, and the total lack of awareness and high emotion, I would use the word hysterical.

Histrionic personality disorder for example (of course notbsuggesting for a moment thebposter has this, just using it to illustrate the language) ‘Associated features include egocentrism, self-indulgence, continuous longing for appreciation, and persistent manipulative behavior to achieve their own needs.’

Yeah i agree with yam

Ive said it loads

But it doesnt matter because people like damn dont care and dont listen

They just call you a terf anyway and put words that youve never said in your mouth

And yes mad before you jump in I appreciate that it hapoens on both sides of any debate

My goodness you should see some of the politics ones !!!!

@Yambabe With you 100%, I can converse with anyone, but I don't really have much to offer a Social debate. I like it here, and I know the mean girls are only joshing.

We all love a guess on this website.

Thanks thebewilderness that makes sense. I'm still learning a lot here.

Madbad does it matter "what kind of woman you are"? I don't want to define you with a narrow label because that's not how I want to define myself either. I want you to be free to just be you. Without wishing to upset you I don't see you as any kind of woman as you are not biologically female but I still see you as a person, as discrete and important, and you matter. But you don't matter more than me. I want to exist alongside you and let you live the life you want whilst I get on with mine.

Is that really such an impossible thing?

I'm sure I'm in there somewhere, but pfffft...fuggit

Imagine trying to find out 'what kind of woman you are' from a leaflet.

I've never seen that, so genuine ta.

8 pages? Are you paying me?

I skimmed enough of it and it seems to say that anyone can be anything and no-one can say anything unsupportive. No wonder you are all so pissed.

Page 3 contains the definition of who the trans umbrellas covers.
www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/first_steps_to_trans_inclusion_2016.pdf

I am "lumped" nowhere but here, and mostly by you.

I have no use for Self-ID, so why am I here? It's 2am, I'm working and I have personal issues. I post at all hours, much like yourself.

What's up?

TRA is the loud voice - they are nothing to do with me or anyone i know. The focus on this board is Them, and not Me, but I don't believe many care to differentiate.
Take it up with Stonewall and the lawmakers who accept the Stonewall definitions for who qualifies under the law as transgender.

We are arguing against the harm being done to women and children by the hopefully unintended consequence of poorly written law and the amendments being contemplated to the poorly written laws.

It makes no sense to complain that women here are lumping you together when it is the laws that have done so.

I'm not a rad fem, and I don't really understand what trans people are being excluded from.

Feminism! Feminism is what the radical feminists were excluding transgender identified males from along with the rest of the males.

Having taken over LGBT spaces on the internet the transgender advocates and "nice guys" were flooding the Feminist blogs and forums with demands that Feminism must be all things to all people and stop excluding important Feminist allies like Hugo Schwyzer and the transgender advocates at "Camp Trans". Those blogs and forums are empty shells of their former selves because women got tired of having the same conversation with MRAs every day.
Basically the same tactics they are using here.

"But I won't budge over for you, because in some cases sex is important. "

I'm not asking you to do that, but no-one takes any notice. TRA is the loud voice - they are nothing to do with me or anyone i know. The focus on this board is Them, and not Me, but I don't believe many care to differentiate. There is no Transphobia here, but there is also no trust, or willingness to exchange or engage.I only serve to be whatever I say I am not. I can't be bothered with the 20 Questions approach to knowledge and understanding, if the static in the room gets too loud.

I've seen others agree with me

Count me in that.

Hi Damn. Hope you don't mind me addressing this particular point?

Thank you for acknowledging my right to exist. Now how about those who are following me? the ones still in the endless queue for a first appointment at a gender clinic; those waiting for HRT; those who can't have surgery for some reason; those whose surgery went wrong; those who are still trying desperately to "be men" for the sake of their families; those whose GP's are refusing to refer them; or those who are like rabbits in the headlights -- desperately miserable as "men", but too terrified of the hatred they see and hear of every day to take that first step through the GP's door.

I may be slightly against the tide here although I've seen others agree with me, but personally I would like you and those who follow you to have all these things. I would like you to be free from discrimination and hate but I believe that anything like that that you experience will be likely to come from men, not women.

I would like to see TRAs campaigning for the right to be trans, not the right to be women. I would like to see you campaign for your own spaces, or for neutral spaces in addition to the current sex-segregated ones. I'll happily share spaces with you, but I appreciate that not every woman (for many and various reasons) can say the same. I'll happily stand alongside you for access to your own safe spaces.

But I won't budge over for you, because in some cases sex is important.

I don't think self-id is needed because a) it doesn't give trans people any more protection than they currently have b) it will potentially make it harder for genuinely dysphoric people to access the services they need and c) without some kind of associated safeguarding I do think it would be too open to abuse.

I'm not a rad fem, and I don't really understand what trans people are being excluded from. Yet somehow because I don't believe that trans women are women and I think gender is a combination of social construct and personality I seem to have become the enemy.

I'm just Ms Average. There are lots of me out here. I'm weighing up the evidence. And what I am seeing is that the people who purport to be speaking for you appear to be aggressive and to condone violence to make their point. The women I am listening to on here condone discussion, even if I don't agree with everything they say.

I keep seeing a phrase on here that really resonates with me - rather than identifying AS women I would rather see trans women identify WITH women. I don't hate you I don't know you. But I've yet to see you post anything that makes me want to defend you on here.

I'm glad you're here as I think it's always good to hear another viewpoint and this forum shouldn't be an echo chamber. But I do find you very entrenched in your opinion and you don't seem to actually be listening to "our" side of the argument, at all. Is there really nothing being said here that's making you go "oh, hang on a minute?"