Girlguiding - an update

My friend's DD is now a transman, who is attracted to both men and women. When a younger teenager, she was gender non-conforming and didn't go to single sex clubs such as guides as she felt more comfortable in a mixed sex environment

It seems odd to me that the GG are falling over themselves to make space for m - f trans children. When I read the court report that people posted about the small boy who went to live with his father, after his mother had brought him up as a transgirl, it seemed very clear that the orthodoxy was that children who are gender non-conforming should be given 'space and choice'. This cannot be given in a single sex (or single gender) organisation. It makes far more sense that a mixed organisation would give more opportunity for under 18s to work out their own needs.

As an ex guide I find this debate quite disturbing. Perhaps they didn't mean to say lesbians will be kicked out and seem to have acknowledged the wording is misleading. It would also run counter to their whole ethos of encouraging girls to challenge gender stereotypes. I was a tomboy as a kid/teen, even mistaken for a boy sometimes. Guides showed me I could be who I wanted without constraints of gender.

As for accepting trans girls, I'm quite new to this concept (only knowingly met trans adults and very few at that) but children can't legally change gender afaik and certainly can't have medical treatment to that effect. How do they distinguish? Would they ask for a doctors note stating gender dysphoria?

I see nothing unreasonable about expecting adult leaders to have legal certification of reassigned gender. That sounds like the case already.

Scouts are mixed sex anyway so no arguments over gender on joining the group, though I assumed sleeping was organised by sex and trans kids would pose awkward questions.

I’m going to be very blunt and say it’s not the sexual attraction I have a problem with, I would never wish to exclude lesbians.
The problem is a penis and the ownership of said penis. A penis attached to a human should not be sharing a space with vagina owners.
Simple as that.
Identify how you want, dress how you like, just keep your dick away from young women and girls.

My friend's DD is now a transman, who is attracted to both men and women. When a younger teenager, she was gender non-conforming and didn't go to single sex clubs such as guides as she felt more comfortable in a mixed sex environment.

However, gender non-conforming boys possibly do feel more comfortable in a girls-only environment. However, we need to understand that most transgirls of the age 10-14 may not be trans, and may just be gender non-conforming. Also they may or may not be attracted to opposite sex. How can it be the official policy that these children are pushed into sharing rooms/tents with the opposite sex? I would be worried if my teenage DS shared a room on a school trip with a transman for these reasons.

Indeed namechanged and there is no way to mobilise grassroots Guiders except through either social media (heavily sat on, if you dare to differ you are banned - including saying something in group A that isn't officially sanctioned, being removed from group B that is) or current channels (you may get something past District but even sympathetic commissioners higher up are afraid for their volunteer roles).

Gosh surely psych units should be an exception sad my mum is often sectioned and wpuld be terrified sad psychotic male bodied person on the ward would be ... horrid.

Psychiatric units, prison, places for girls, places for vulnerable women, all can and should be exempt. The people making the decisions choose not to use that exemption.

@SardineReturns @TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld
Guiding already has this, we did "Parliament Week" in the autumn term, held debates, covered the history of women's suffrage and rights, (they were amazed by the facts and shocked by how different things were) we even got a very nice badge all Guides love badges.

There is lots of stuff about inspirational women and how girls can do anything, don't run away with the idea it's all gone pink and fluffy with added unicorns.

It's just we have to include boys who identify as girls and manage out girls who don't, and we can't tell the parents!

Gosh surely psych units should be an exception :( my mum is often sectioned and wpuld be terrified :( psychotic male bodied person on the ward would be ... horrid.

"would it be possible for Guiders to launch a "100 years" (of women getting the vote) campaign? Or some other hook? What I am getting at is: start a Guiding grassroots celebration of single sex brilliance, which will force the leadership to state that they don't support it?"

They won't say they don't support it.
They will say they do support it.
They are currently holding two opposing ideas to be true, simultaneously.

and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”.
Just WTAF

& the experience of a woman being treated by mental health services:

"A Lancaster mum whose bi-polar disorder left her believing men were conspiring to kill her said she was left terrified when she was locked on a women’s psychiatric ward with an “extremely male-bodied” transgender patient...
...When she raised her concerns with hospital staff, however, she said she was not taken seriously and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”.

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-with-fear-of-men-locked-on-hospital-ward-with-transgender-patient-1-8963648

cf the accusations voiced at women in Canada who raised concerns about sharing space with trans woman:
www.them.us/story/domestic-violence-shelters-fighting-transphobia-ben-carson

globalnews.ca/news/3300518/concerns-over-transgender-client-at-okanagan-shelter/

Personality clash (or bloke saying he's a woman), then I politely suggest my unit is not the one for them. Not because they're trans, but because we don't click, and to do this, as a leader, you have to click with your leadership team.

Inflag, sorry, but this coy approach does not work. In theory it should, but it won't, most TRAs being a rather litigious lot. Go look at an example of how to attempt to handle things 'diplomatically'

You make the wrong assumption that they have female socialisation, and won't make a fuss. No, you are dealing with males (and male socialisation) here.

Juells
From what I saw online, the girls who protested were 'shown up' as bigots and terfs and transphobes, and the trans girl came out of the debacle as a hero.

That is the usual spin, whether true or not. I get the feeling it was a fairly conservative region, and the parents also on board.

Also IIRC, in a previous thread a post was deleted for mentioning bulges in connection with a video of the incident.

I was incredibly cagey about not mentioning names (a shit ton of edits before posting). To adhere to the guidelines. I had the name, revised it, no name mentioned, due to the policy. A fucked up policy, given the girls were creeped out by 'them'. More important to silence women/girls' objections eh?

I suspect Scouting has not been any more forthcoming with parents or leaders about this issue and parents will still be unaware that they have the right to ask or state a preference.

It sounds to me like adolescent trans boys are exactly the girls that need Guiding and they are the group that will be asked to leave. Heart breaking.

Yes.

Inflagrante could you support the girl as a Lone Guide for the moment maybe? Invite her to District events?

It sounds to me like adolescent trans boys are exactly the girls that need Guiding and they are the group that will be asked to leave. Heart breaking.

Yes, indirectly. A joint guiding/ scouting thing. 6mth run up, practice night my Brownie night, so only dh (scouter) Dd1 (guide) and Dd2 (Brownie & cub) took an active part. I helped out during the actual event. There were two girls who were questioning their gender identity, one already in scouting, the younger one a guide, but between units because she'd been managed out of hers and couldn't find one to go to. Technically she shouldn't have been able to participate, but her parents were part of the organising team.

She says obviously at a point of vulnerability, very emotionally wobbly, and this made her unreliable, which impacted Dd1, and others who were supposed to work with her at various points of the programme. I get the feeling that trans want what she needed, but she couldn't articulate what she did need. Poor girl.

Like I said, if I ran guides nearer her home area (Brownie leader) I'd have her. Because I do believe guiding gives girls a stable base and a voice.

The transboys ( plural) in our local school change separately from both the boys and the girls. Transgender children are permitted to choose where they change, it’s the other children who aren’t, but dd hasn’t heard of any who have yet chosen to dive in there with the boys, for good reason.

I imagine that many transitioning young girls understand the risk rather too well.

But if that definition does not match with a protected characteristic then how can they justify excluding some young people and not others?

YY. They will be excluding some people with the protected sex characteristic of female ("trans boys") and including some people with the protected sex characteristic of male.

I am not a lawyer and find all the discussion of what is and isn't allowed in the equalities act and how it relates to the GRA act etc. confusing and hard to follow. My understanding was that GG was single sex which it can be because of the exemptions in the equalities act but then changed to saying they are single gender where gender is not a protected characteristic so how can they do that? And now they just say they are girl only which in the current climate sounds very wishy washy and is crying out for a definitive definition of what is a girl. But if that definition does not match with a protected characteristic then how can they justify excluding some young people and not others?

If the characteristic is not sex (genes, genitals biology etc) then are we ending up in a place where their will have be a legal definition of girl based on clothes, colour preferences, mannerisms and all that rubbish? That is completely bonkers. I just can't get my head around how any of this can work and it is so totally at odds with what I understood where the core values of GG.

inflagrante You've really experienced s female being excluded from other Guide groups for questioning their gender? I'm not doubting you, just saddened by that. Do Guiding UK think all the barriers that young person faces because of their female biology magically melt away whilst they're being confused about their gender?!

Guiding should be the place where no expectations are placed on a female child to act a certain way.