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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding - an update

418 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 21:23

Firstly, apologies for being offline for a while. It's been a busy few weeks, I went on holiday and started a new job. But back on it now!

You'll know that an article was published in the Sunday Times in March and a couple of weeks later the open letter went in: the final tally was 927 signatures (some of these collected after publication).

Since then I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide. Prior to that, I was warned in emails to use the internal procedures for complaints and to not make things public (I did, and was ignored). I was also "reminded" of the social media policy and told that the campaign would not change the trans policy.

It's probably not appropriate to share my full notes from that meeting here. But I will say that Girlguiding was defensive and prickly. The fact that I have publicly discussed the trans policy on social media in particular irritated Julie Bentley (CEO). I don't know why; the policy is a public document available on the website.

Girlguiding stressed to me that the legal advice they received confirmed that they HAVE to treat trans members (including those who self identify, not just with a GRC) as the opposite sex) as the gender they identify as.

We did agree that in the absence of a test case, there is no legal precedent. It was left that we would await the updated EHRC guidance expected next month before any review is conducted (if they chose to review it).

We did discuss the inconsistencies that the trans policy brings about, eg GG has strict rules that accompanying male children on leaders must have separate sleeping and washing facilities. Even boys as young as 4. But if that boy identified as a girl, then no such rules apply, despite there being no physical, material difference between the two groups of males. Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy.

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

One of the key issues for me is that girlguiding now offers single gender but mixed sex accommodation. I accept that the number of trans girls joining guides will be small compared to our overall membership - but it would only take one incident to cause huge harm to the children involved, their families and girlguiding. I suggested that GG might want to make the single gender / mixed sex aspect clearer, perhaps by adapting the standard consent form to advise parents that we don't guarantee single sex accommodation. Yet again, I was accused of wanting "out" individuals. That is not my intention at all.

I've heard nothing from girlguiding since. I will be following up on the action points. We will have a new CEO in June and updated EHRC guidance which will hopefully give all children equal rights to bodily privacy and autonomy, not just the trans kids.

OP posts:
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loopsdefruit · 07/09/2018 18:24

oops sorry didn't mean to tag!

loopsdefruit · 07/09/2018 18:23

@silent, Agnes BP is Helen

silentcrow · 07/09/2018 16:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Angryresister · 25/05/2018 20:14

I wonder what this was awarded for....appropriate in the circumstances?

Girlguiding - an update
FlyingSquid · 25/05/2018 16:59

I'm getting to the point of thinking 'Well, if my womanhood invalidates someone else's identity, that's their problem.'

I don't like that feeling much, but I suspect I share it with quite a few actual women.

Flooffloof · 25/05/2018 16:26

Well shit the goalposts keep moving around
Last time i looked a woman was female.
Overnight it seems that's not enough, I must feel womanly too?

Kyanite · 25/05/2018 10:45

Here's another...if you don't identify as a women, you are not a woman and you are also being transphobic by saying you are a woman because of your biology.

Girlguiding - an update
UpstartCrow · 25/05/2018 09:07

Those vile tweets are also an example of DARVO; deny, attack, reverse victim and offender.
Its seems the latest move is to define 'terfs' as MRA's and misogynists.

Offred · 25/05/2018 07:47

It’s redefining ‘woman’ as gender role compliance and ‘misogyny’ as hate based on gender identity rather than female sex that’s particularly clear in those tweets.

TimeLady · 25/05/2018 07:42

Those tweets above about TERFs are quite enlightening, aren't they? "You can tell they're not real women by their aggressive attitude mannerisms and entitled attitudes."

I've never seen any actual women defined as not 'real women' before.

It's as though 'real women' are now supposed to be what is served up on screen - in films or video games. Not you wonderful guiders, giving up your time voluntarily to help the next generation.

Staggeringly delusional. I can't think of any other way to describe it.

MorbidMuch · 25/05/2018 07:20

On further thinking, the Period Poverty badge might bring the issues to the attention of many more Guiders who were previously unaware.

On another note, at my last District meeting, I looked around and noticed that none of the 20-25 leaders there 'performed femininity'. To a woman we were wearing trousers, no make up, short unpolished nails, most with very short hair. Someone who performed a hypersexualised stereotypical femininity would stick out a mile.

Notthatwomanagain · 25/05/2018 07:08

Have emailed despite not having any girls- hope others feel they can do the same

Thank you for what you are doing Agnes- I know the personal cost can be huge and your time alone on this is a big commitment. We need more women like you in the world.

Offred · 25/05/2018 07:07

Are we saying lots of young boys are going to announce themselves to be girls just to molest girls?

🙄 no, some people have said male bodies in female only sleeping and washing facilities remain male bodies for safeguarding purposes whether those people have a female gender identity or not and guides does not seem to understand this.

What I’m concerned about is that under the banner of ‘trans inclusion’ GG are excluding females who don’t have a feminine gender identity and including males who have a feminine gender identity.

This changes girl guides from a single sex organisation into a single gender identity organisation. There is no basis in law for that to be legitimate.

It is possible though for organisations to be single sex if this is legitimate and proportional. This is why girl guides has been allowed to remain single sex.

Baroquehavoc · 25/05/2018 06:59

What do you expect GG to do here? They cannot possibly go against national policy on their own.

What national policy?

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 25/05/2018 06:55

What do you expect GG to do here? They cannot possibly go against national policy on their own.

How big a problem is this? Are we saying lots of young boys are going to announce themselves to be girls just to molest girls?

I only know one trans boy and he is a tortured soul who believes he should be a girl and is transitioning slowly.

Offred · 25/05/2018 06:46

Bewilderness’ 8th rule;

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Kyanite · 25/05/2018 06:36

What does ‘performing femininity’ look like?

Not being a "TERF", apparently.

Girlguiding - an update
SimonBridges · 25/05/2018 06:22

What does ‘performing femininity’ look like?

hausenberger · 25/05/2018 06:18

Let me get this straight: trans boys (AFAB) are categorically not allowed but biological boys are? That's not very inclusive? As pp have said, it's about performing femininity.

MorbidMuch · 25/05/2018 05:54

I want to do the period poverty badge with my unit, but unless one of the girls brings it up, I'm not going to go there with discussing trans boys / non-binary. If they ask, I will emphasise that they all share the female reproductive system, no matter how they present themselves.

I worry about Guides being groomed from the top down. I would shut down my unit before I let a predator have access to the girls. Though perhaps that is also a win for them - if they can't infiltrate, get it shut down.

Angryresister · 24/05/2018 20:36

Flooffloof No, you are not paranoid. The Mens rights activists just want us all to roll over, literally and figuratively. Keep on resisting, all you fantastic ,strong and articulate women

Flooffloof · 24/05/2018 18:34

But no. They know that Guiding's single sex status is a huge part of
its appeal to girls and to parents alike. They know single sex
organisations are important for girls, But the current leadership
want to suck up to men too, and they've decided that that is more important.

It strikes me as though the "exploitative men" have nowhere to find victims anymore. What with religion dying out, grooming gangs being jailed, parents being more aware etc etc.
We all are sure big money is behind this sudden explosion in trans matters. Is it possible it's a way to find victims long term?
If you can convince enough women as girls to accept female penis and men where they really should not be, you get them and the next generation as potential victims.possibly even the generation after.

Of course I could well be mucho paranoid.
Here's hoping in fact I am paranoid

Beamur · 24/05/2018 18:32

Lordy. Just read that article, not just girls and women have periods but correct language should be used to avoid confusion. Really. Am I supposed to read this with a straight face.

Offred · 24/05/2018 18:29

Again, out of the trans group, which ones are likely to need support re ‘normalising’ periods? Is it the ones guides are kicking out of guides maybe?

It shows them up. It is clear that what they are doing is changing the purpose of guides from sex based to gender ID based.

It would be funny if it wasn’t such a tragedy - why do they think transboys/women and some non-binary people menstruate? Is is because they are female no matter what their gender identity is?

ScaredPAD · 24/05/2018 18:21

Guides as I knew it is dying :(

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