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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding - an update

418 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 21:23

Firstly, apologies for being offline for a while. It's been a busy few weeks, I went on holiday and started a new job. But back on it now!

You'll know that an article was published in the Sunday Times in March and a couple of weeks later the open letter went in: the final tally was 927 signatures (some of these collected after publication).

Since then I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide. Prior to that, I was warned in emails to use the internal procedures for complaints and to not make things public (I did, and was ignored). I was also "reminded" of the social media policy and told that the campaign would not change the trans policy.

It's probably not appropriate to share my full notes from that meeting here. But I will say that Girlguiding was defensive and prickly. The fact that I have publicly discussed the trans policy on social media in particular irritated Julie Bentley (CEO). I don't know why; the policy is a public document available on the website.

Girlguiding stressed to me that the legal advice they received confirmed that they HAVE to treat trans members (including those who self identify, not just with a GRC) as the opposite sex) as the gender they identify as.

We did agree that in the absence of a test case, there is no legal precedent. It was left that we would await the updated EHRC guidance expected next month before any review is conducted (if they chose to review it).

We did discuss the inconsistencies that the trans policy brings about, eg GG has strict rules that accompanying male children on leaders must have separate sleeping and washing facilities. Even boys as young as 4. But if that boy identified as a girl, then no such rules apply, despite there being no physical, material difference between the two groups of males. Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy.

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

One of the key issues for me is that girlguiding now offers single gender but mixed sex accommodation. I accept that the number of trans girls joining guides will be small compared to our overall membership - but it would only take one incident to cause huge harm to the children involved, their families and girlguiding. I suggested that GG might want to make the single gender / mixed sex aspect clearer, perhaps by adapting the standard consent form to advise parents that we don't guarantee single sex accommodation. Yet again, I was accused of wanting "out" individuals. That is not my intention at all.

I've heard nothing from girlguiding since. I will be following up on the action points. We will have a new CEO in June and updated EHRC guidance which will hopefully give all children equal rights to bodily privacy and autonomy, not just the trans kids.

OP posts:
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NothingOnTellyAgain · 10/09/2018 09:54

Gi not hi

On phone

NothingOnTellyAgain · 10/09/2018 09:53

Just looking at HI, jay Stewart is an artist.

On what basis are they qualified to advise the prison service?

Oh right, none. Result- women sexually assaulted by rapist locked in with them.

Who gives a fuck about that though, it's only cunty people.

averylongtimeago · 10/09/2018 09:29

A couple of questions- who are they actually giving the money too?
How are they going to "enlist" the children?
What control will that give the government over Guiding and Scouting?

deepwatersolo · 10/09/2018 09:10

hat not head. Oh well, actually , at this point I might as well have a tinfoil head.

sashh · 10/09/2018 09:10

In the meeting, it was also said that whatever they did would "discriminate against someone".

So? Not all discrimination is illegal.

In fact the policy about personal care probably breaches the sex discrimination act.

ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 10/09/2018 09:08

In plain sight.

deepwatersolo · 10/09/2018 09:04

Government plans to "enlist" thousands of disadvantaged children to the Girl Guides and Scouts

I just can't. It is like a concerted attempt to pave new ways, now after some 'classic' routes might have been shut down, due to publicity... Where is my tinfoil head?

NameChangedAgain18 · 10/09/2018 08:57

Government plans to "enlist" thousands of disadvantaged children to the Girl Guides and Scouts:

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/10/tories-plan-to-enlist-disadvantaged-children-as-guides-and-scouts

Includes Coventry. Let's hope these organisations get their safeguarding procedures watertight before countless vulnerable kids are preyed on by the likes of DC. If not, this has the potential to be another Rotherham, set in motion by the State.

ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 08/09/2018 11:32

Formerly known as National Children's Homes (they don't run homes any more as far as I know). The most vulnerable children in society, in other words.

I think all their residential schools have now closed [thankfully for the kids] but they do provide residential facilities for SEN children.

The thought of the amount of autistic kids going through their system and being transed rather than supported fills me with sheer horror.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 08/09/2018 11:22

Thanks Datun.

Goldsmiths sounds 'interesting'.

averylongtimeago · 08/09/2018 11:12

It is very difficult not to done a tin hat and start wondering about global conspiracies........

AgnesBadenPowell · 08/09/2018 11:08

Thanks for the correction @MipMipMip.

To the poster that asked, the delightful and Bentley already has a new job as CEO of Action for Children. Formerly known as National Children's Homes (they don't run homes any more as far as I know). The most vulnerable children in society, in other words.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 08/09/2018 10:55

How can anyone write that and not see the problem?

OrchidInTheSun · 08/09/2018 10:52

Re Jay Stewart, this is on their National Lottery funded Knowledge is Power section which is aimed at young people: "Being trans is based on self-identification. This means there is no specific criteria that a person has to fulfil in order to be trans. There is no qualification to pass, no exam to sit and no judge of eligibility. All a person has to do to be trans is to describe themselves as trans."

Anyone can be special! There's also make up tips and advice on where to get binders. For teenagers

OrchidInTheSun · 08/09/2018 10:45

Madigan would certainly not get into any other university with their qualifications

Datun · 08/09/2018 10:36

HawkeyeInConfusion

I think we do. Calling @CesiraAndEnrico

Another bloke (Louise Chambers) at Goldsmiths was a senior lecturer in the Media dpt. despite never having published a single paper anywhere. Did PhD on Bridget Jones LOL.
And radical liberal Sarah Ahmed was cool with him fucking his teenage girl students, obvs.

All I know about it is that it lets in students who only passed 1 A-level, has senior academics who don't seem to have any academic background, &have people employed there who apparently don't actually exist.

mobile.twitter.com/isacsohn/status/1038268527193538560

HawkeyeInConfusion · 08/09/2018 09:59

I see Jay Stewart went to Goldsmiths.

Do we need to include Goldsmiths on our Trello board?

boatyardblues · 08/09/2018 09:32

NSPCC, if I recall earlier threads correctly ImPreCis.

ImPreCis · 08/09/2018 09:30

SOrry for a slight derail here.

Where is the divine Ms Bentley going to when she leaves GG next year, having decided that her work there is done? What other affiliations does she have?

It would be interesting to keep an eye on her progress maybe.

MipMipMip · 08/09/2018 09:23

Well done Lemon! Great work.

Agnes in the interest of not getting deleted by MNHQ, I'm clarifying something you wrote. The convicted rapist who was put in the chicken coop women's prision admired to two of the four assaults . The other two he didn't but they are to lay on his file. Assaults to only two trapped women instead of four sounds so much better.

LemonJello · 08/09/2018 08:42

👍

SwiftNC · 07/09/2018 21:10

Looks like it's been flagged to James Kirkup, lemonjello

LemonJello · 07/09/2018 20:13

If Agnes thinks it’s a good idea maybe someone could alert James?

LemonJello · 07/09/2018 20:12

Thank you for the kind words Smile

No, I’m not on Twitter. It’s scary out there!

BoreOfWhabylon · 07/09/2018 20:09

You might want to draw this to the attention of James Kirkup on Twitter. His latest piece in The Spectator has a swipe at Gendered Intelligence and its influence on policy. He also mentions the Guides.

Can't link at the moment but there's another thread in FWR about it.

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