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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding - an update

418 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 21:23

Firstly, apologies for being offline for a while. It's been a busy few weeks, I went on holiday and started a new job. But back on it now!

You'll know that an article was published in the Sunday Times in March and a couple of weeks later the open letter went in: the final tally was 927 signatures (some of these collected after publication).

Since then I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide. Prior to that, I was warned in emails to use the internal procedures for complaints and to not make things public (I did, and was ignored). I was also "reminded" of the social media policy and told that the campaign would not change the trans policy.

It's probably not appropriate to share my full notes from that meeting here. But I will say that Girlguiding was defensive and prickly. The fact that I have publicly discussed the trans policy on social media in particular irritated Julie Bentley (CEO). I don't know why; the policy is a public document available on the website.

Girlguiding stressed to me that the legal advice they received confirmed that they HAVE to treat trans members (including those who self identify, not just with a GRC) as the opposite sex) as the gender they identify as.

We did agree that in the absence of a test case, there is no legal precedent. It was left that we would await the updated EHRC guidance expected next month before any review is conducted (if they chose to review it).

We did discuss the inconsistencies that the trans policy brings about, eg GG has strict rules that accompanying male children on leaders must have separate sleeping and washing facilities. Even boys as young as 4. But if that boy identified as a girl, then no such rules apply, despite there being no physical, material difference between the two groups of males. Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy.

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

One of the key issues for me is that girlguiding now offers single gender but mixed sex accommodation. I accept that the number of trans girls joining guides will be small compared to our overall membership - but it would only take one incident to cause huge harm to the children involved, their families and girlguiding. I suggested that GG might want to make the single gender / mixed sex aspect clearer, perhaps by adapting the standard consent form to advise parents that we don't guarantee single sex accommodation. Yet again, I was accused of wanting "out" individuals. That is not my intention at all.

I've heard nothing from girlguiding since. I will be following up on the action points. We will have a new CEO in June and updated EHRC guidance which will hopefully give all children equal rights to bodily privacy and autonomy, not just the trans kids.

OP posts:
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Offred · 20/05/2018 20:44

Yy eresh.

A GRC would be neither here nor there though in a self ID world. If you can change sex for all practical purposes; accessing services, in employment, in stats, on documents etc etc just by saying you have then there really are very few instances where you may want a GRC.

The legal fiction of sex change in the original GRA has opened the flood gates already.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 20:33

legal female sex

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 20:33

It is becoming ever more clear that actually changing the GRA is not the main issue. The main issue is changing the definition of the word ‘sex’ to include gender identity.

The thing is that if a male has a GRC they have the protected sex characteristic of female, no longer male. Which undermines the idea of male/female sex and related protections. So the GRA is important as the proposed changes codify self ID into law and self ID would massively increase the number of male people with female sex.

Wanderabout · 20/05/2018 20:32

Sex doesn't change, you cannot actually change sex. You can be recognised in law mostly as though you are the opposite sex, but you still remain physically the same sex.

Offred · 20/05/2018 20:32

GG may be ahead of the legal approach or it may actually be making the changes because this is how sex is actually now defined.

‘Transwomen are women’ may not be a political aim but an actual legal reality already.

Wanderabout · 20/05/2018 20:28

Transwomen are men who wish to live their life as women. It doesn't matter how many times they repeat it they are still the same biological sex.

Offred · 20/05/2018 20:27

What is happening re girl guides is simply an extension of that. The point where sex is considered to have changed due to gender identity is now becoming when someone says it has.

If self ID comes in it may simply be codifying what is already happening in practice.

Offred · 20/05/2018 20:25

Yy I know. IMO the horse may well have already gone in 2004 with the GRA when it introduced the legal fiction of ‘sex change’.

namechangedasimaguider · 20/05/2018 20:24

In the Uk Scouting has been open to girls and boys for at a guess 25 years can't remember exactly.
So yes, they could join Scouts.

Until Jan 2017 Girlguiding was a single sex organisation for females, run by females. At that point the definition was changed from "sex" to gender - if you feel like a girl, you can join.

Kyanite · 20/05/2018 20:21

Offred, I posted on the previous page from the guidance notes...gender reassignment is a protected characteristic and the Act refers to reassigning the person’s sex.

Vicky1990 · 20/05/2018 20:16

Can she join the Boy Scouts?.

Badgerthebodger · 20/05/2018 20:11

She gets managed out Vicky. If she doesn’t “identify as a girl” whatever that means, she obviously shouldn’t be in GG. The leader is supposed to find a way to get rid.

Vicky1990 · 20/05/2018 20:03

What is the situation regarding a girl who identifies as a boy?.

Maryz · 20/05/2018 19:59

Don't be silly, drspouse, they don't have any male leaders who identify as women, they only have women leaders Hmm

See this is where "transwomen are women" leads us. It's why it's important to fight the mantra. Because once transwomen are women (anecdotally and then legally), then there will be a push that single-sex spaces are The Most Important Places On The Planet. We MUST retain single sex spaces at all costs (toilets, sports, GG etc etc).

We must retain them - and include transwomen in them. That's where we are going.

Basically women and girls are fucked.

Offred · 20/05/2018 19:59

I think everyone needs to be aware that even though the current law includes sex as a protected characteristic and gender reassignment as another and there are exemptions re sex in making accommodations for gender reassignment all of this is highly dependent on what the terms ‘sex’ and ‘gender reassignment’ mean.

This is why ‘keeping the sex category’ is pretty meaningless if sex now means ‘self professed gender identity’.

It is becoming ever more clear that actually changing the GRA is not the main issue. The main issue is changing the definition of the word ‘sex’ to include gender identity.

It is entirely possible that this has already happened and that actually sex based rights are already meaningless.

Wanderabout · 20/05/2018 19:57

This is why I think the EA needs updating, the exemptions need to be overhauled in order to ensure that single sex provision is upheld where it is wanted & usually provided, and it needs to be written in order to minimise the risk of legal action, because that is why so few use the exemptions.

Absolutely.

SimonBridges · 20/05/2018 19:56

It’s going to take abuse for this to be taken seriously isn’t it.
There is going to have to be someone raped before anyone cares.
And even then history tells me that no one really cares when women and girls are attacked.

Please understand that I am not saying for one moment that transwomen are rapists. Not for one second. What I am saying is that a rapist could pose as a transwomen.

ChattyLion · 20/05/2018 19:21

I am really glad that the Charity Commission are looking at it. There will be a process around how a charity can legitimately change its charitable objects (ie the charity’s aims and who they say they exist to benefit).

I’m fairly sure the process isn’t ‘let’s just chuck a policy up on the website and block and ignore everyone who disagrees with it, then point to legal advice which only we have actually seen..’

drspouse · 20/05/2018 19:08

Oh and I shall be asking if they have male leaders who identify as women and using those terms. I actually doubt we do locally but nobody will understand "trans girl".

leyat · 20/05/2018 19:05

So basically a girl can need intimate care and it can come from a trans identifying man and she wouldn't be asked for her consent first (in relation to the adult being male) and nor would her parents?

drspouse · 20/05/2018 19:00

I'm also a leader and have also had posts deleted or just plain not approved on the FB groups. I've written with my concerns and I've received no reply though it was recent. There is other stuff going on that I can't talk about also.
But my plan is to make sure all leaders involved in all residentials and all joint events I'm at that involve changing clothes (e.g. swimming) know the policy because I'll be asking them to tell me so I can check my girls are OK with it.
I'm not sure I can stretch this to joint events with shared loos though.
I think that a parent of a boy who identifies as a girl would tell me that is who they are. Obviously I have no guarantee if they are prepubescent but it would be daft of them not to if they think their child will be sharing loos with girls. The girls would probably know - but they may be from a different school.

AgnesBadenPowell · 20/05/2018 18:48

Going right back to the op here. Are you saying that there could be male bodied adults providing intimate care to girls?

Yes, I am saying that the policy makes that a possibility. I don't know if it's actually happened. GG won't disclose someone's trans status, and rightly so. But mix that with policy of gender self ID and a refusal to use single sex exemptions, and we have a massive failing which is wide open to abuse.

And by abuse, I also mean it opens the trans person to spurious allegations as well.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 18:44

This is why I think the EA needs updating, the exemptions need to be overhauled in order to ensure that single sex provision is upheld where it is wanted & usually provided, and it needs to be written in order to minimise the risk of legal action, because that is why so few use the exemptions.

YY. I think forcing women and girls to use intimate sex segregated facilities and services with males without their consent needs to be viewed as sexual harassment in and of itself. Under the Equality Act.

Baroquehavoc · 20/05/2018 18:44

But no, they insist on being included in single sex groups not of their sex

To be fair, I don't think there are many 13 year old 'transgirls' demanding this. I think this is is pushed by adult TIM who see GG as an easy target. And I'll be charitable and say it's mainly for validation.

PlectrumElectrum · 20/05/2018 18:42

It smacks of trying to prove a point, to validate an untruth, whilst simultaneously not giving one fuck about who you are negatively affecting.

That exactly what it is - it's all about validation, getting the ultimate acceptance & approval to 'seamlessly ' fit into a group that you want to belong to & if you can't do that by request (meaning actually asking the people affected - leaders, parents & the girls themselves) you'll do it by force. All to legitimise a delusion.

It's utterly fucked up to put that on girls & young women.

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