Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Think I am beginning to get it...

59 replies

SlowlyWaking · 19/05/2018 08:54

And largely due to reading here and the gender critical boards over on Reddit so thank you.

Just had a few things click into place for me and wanted to share and learn more.

Sex is biological and cannot be changed.

Gender is a spectrum constructed by society as feminine roles and identities all the way along to masculine ones. When somebody identifies as non-binary/gender neutral/pangender/genderqueer they are essentially saying 'I move along this spectrum day by day, moment by moment, Im neither always overtly masculine or feminine.' (Personally, I think I, and a lot of people do that, but I'm still a woman.)

Women are currently more fluid and flexible in sitting anywhere on this spectrum because of the earlier waves of feminism. Women are more comfortable with (and often embrace) the masculine elements of their identity whereas men are still stuck in what it means to be a man and wont be so open to their femine elements.

This has led to a rise in toxic masculinity/manosphere/ anti feminist culture because they are afraid to lose the privilege that has oppressed women for so long. This fear of 'losing' something stops men from feeling like they can move fluidly along the gender spectrum. It has led to feminine males transitioning to female because it makes the things they want to do/be more societally acceptable by presenting as a woman. Conversely, females transitioning to male are hoping to win some of the power - many have been victims of abuse at the hands of men and seek to protect themselves from the system by becoming part of it. As they are generally no threat to men or the male privilege, ftm trans people largely go unnoticed.

Feminism is the advocacy for women's rights based on equality of the sexes, so feminism is about protecting biological females. Whether or not they are masculine or feminine or anywhere on that spectrum doesnt matter but biological females face oppression in ways that are exclusive to being born female like FGM and rape. Therefore, transwomen are not female.

That doesnt deny that feminine males also face discrimination but it does deny that their struggle is based on their sex. Feminine males have their own struggles because they dont fit the box of what an 'ideal' masculine male is - a box that was constructed by the patriarchy (alongside one that says what an 'ideal' feminine female is) in the first place to keep women oppressed.

Self ID is a problem in that it removes the protection of biological females, thats why feminists are so against it. It cannot be allowed to happen. Females must be allowed to only compete aginst females, females must be allowed to change separately from males. Gender has no place in those arenas.

TRAs are often at odds with feminists because they dont understand that their fight should be about deconstructing gender roles which would benefit everybody. Transgender people should be feminist allies. MRAs who spout sarcastic statistics about their privilege dont seem to realise it is the patriarchy that is responsible for putting them on the front line, for putting them into hazardous employment, for making women the primary caregiver in the majority of cases and, predominantly, men that are raping other men. Men should be feminist allies. Even women need to wake up and realise this. The patriarchy has worked hard to desecrate the word feminism to the point where women won't even identify as feminists - thats crazy to me, women wont admit that they support the fight for, and desire, equal rights for women.

I'm still wading through what I think about post-op trans people in terms of their access to safe spaces and opportunities to compete in sport/hold job roles specifically relating to womens' rights. Im still unsure about pronouns. But its coming together in my head. Little by little.

I know I've missed a whole heap of apostrophes but meh. Lazy.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 19/05/2018 10:07

The problem with self id ( apart from the removal of medical support from people who often have severe mental health problems ) is that the people who are mostly supporting self id also want to change either the equality act Itself or society so that it becomes normal to consider that equality act means that a person gender identified as a women is a sexual woman and so should never be excluded from any space that are meant to protect the female of our species .

Yes. They want to normalise the idea of males in women's spaces and undermine the idea of women as a biological sex class facing sex based oppression.

ReluctantCamper · 19/05/2018 10:03

and Debbie Heyton said that in a world devoid of gender expectations, she would not have transitioned and would just have been a feminine man.

ReluctantCamper · 19/05/2018 10:03

really enjoyed reading your post and agreed with most of it, but since we're talking:

That doesnt deny that feminine males also face discrimination but it does deny that their struggle is based on their sex

I would say that the discrimination they face is based on sex - the gender expectations surrounding male sex being different from the way they want to act and present themselves.

Debbie Heyton was very interesting on this at the Basingstoke Woman's PLace meeting this week. I have no experience of gender dysphoria, can't even imagine what it feels like, but I think this is at the root of it.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 19/05/2018 10:00

Where I was a student there was quite a few feminist magazine (ie Spare Rib). What's the current offerings? Not online as I still think print journalism is better than online blog baby instant nonsense.

LangCleg · 19/05/2018 09:54

My boyfriend and I were just saying there's nothing inherently offensive about a penis but of course victims of rape would feel very differently if that penis was in their safe space.

Also remember that human beings naturally recognise sex in 99.9% of cases - superficial cosmetic changes don't change that. And trauma related to the male body isn't confined to the sight of a penis - the timbre of a voice, an Adam's apple, broad shoulders: all of these things can set off PTSD in a traumatised woman encountering a male person unexpectedly in a safe space.

I liked your post, OP. I always find it interesting, constructive and positive when women freely share thought processes with one another.

Original poster
SlowlyWaking · 19/05/2018 09:42

Radfems argue for the dismantling of the whole concept of gender.

100% agree with this, its what I've come to realise over the last year or so. Gender neutrality is getting a bashing lots of places, but its actually the only way forward. Also PotPlant heirarchy is such a better word - much more accurate and explains that ability to adopt masculine behaviours for women perfectly. Thank you, I will be adopting that phrase from now on!

MI thats something I completely hadn't considered, in terms of trauma. My boyfriend and I were just saying there's nothing inherently offensive about a penis but of course victims of rape would feel very differently if that penis was in their safe space. I think third spaces are the way forward too but there would still need to be more safeguards for trans people against others with violent/abusive intentions coming into that space. But then that should be the focus of TRAs.

OP posts:
MIdgebabe · 19/05/2018 09:17

Nit picking here

My understanding is that Strictly self id does not remove protection from women directly. Under current equality laws, transwomen with a certificate can still be excluded from some things because of their sex.

The problem with self id ( apart from the removal of medical support from people who often have severe mental health problems ) is that the people who are mostly supporting self id also want to change either the equality act Itself or society so that it becomes normal to consider that equality act means that a person gender identified as a women is a sexual woman and so should never be excluded from any space that are meant to protect the female of our species .

The complication here is that it is probable that transwomen do experiance increased rates of violence and harm from other men which means that the needs to be some way to provide them also with similar protections to those that women face.

But I don't want that to mean the shared use of those spaces because firstly transwomen have no lower rate of violence against women than men in general ( especially when the majority have no surgical or hormaonal changes) and secondly because it would make it much easier for men to abuse the current honour system.

A particular concern of mine relates to rape victims and how being close to physically male bodies when in a vulnerable position can cause mental health problems ..trauma, flashbacks. Given that a lot of women have been raped, in a typical changing room the will be women who have been raped.

TERFragetteCity · 19/05/2018 09:15

Nutshell.

Potplant2 · 19/05/2018 09:14

Gender is a spectrum constructed by society as feminine roles and identities all the way along to masculine ones. When somebody identifies as non-binary/gender neutral/pangender/genderqueer they are essentially saying 'I move along this spectrum day by day, moment by moment, Im neither always overtly masculine or feminine.' (Personally, I think I, and a lot of people do that, but I'm still a woman.)

I agree with most of what you say but not this bit. Gender is a hierarchy, not a spectrum. It’s the TRAs and libfems who argue it’s a spectrum. Radfems argue it’s a hierarchy intended to keep women at the bottom. This is the reason why it’s more socially acceptable for women to adopt ‘masculine’ behaviours like wearing trousers than it is for men to adopt ‘feminine’ behaviour like wearing skirts. Femininity is seen as weak and shameful, so men adopting it are shamed while women adopting masculinity less so.

Radfems argue for the dismantling of the whole concept of gender.