Think I am beginning to get it...

Blimey moodydench that is a very depressing thought/world view.

Let women and men present themselves however they, personally, wish to do so. Be it Tea-dresses, or formal trousers suit, or kilts, or jeans and a jumper or T-shirt. No problem.

But single sex spaces for women and girls must remain, because men in general cause a great deal more violence in society than women. E.g, 98% of sexual criminals are men.

It’s just occurred to me that women perform femininity, which probably sounds obvious to everyone else. I guess what I’m trying to get at is that there is NOTHING instrinsically female about femininity. When I get up in the morning I decide how much I am going to dial it up or down, eg if I am going to be in an important client-facing meeting, where being the public face of my company means conforming to more rigorous expectations/dress code, or working from home in my joggers & hoody. It’s all BS.

I agree. However, I think some men may be at higher risk of developing aberrant personalities/behaviour. Just like how some breeds of dog seem to have more potential for violence if badly socialised, but nearly all will be ok when well adjusted.

I just know I manage to navigate the world with ambition drive and an attraction to women without fighting anyone I come across or raping/ assaulting people. I won’t lie in my younger days one or two women said I came across as creepy until they got to know me so I took it on the chin and resolved to be better. I seem to be in the clear on that front since my teens. Basically the take home is men can improve!

Moody
I’m sure there is innate biological stuff hence the need for competing with the same sex only in sports for example.
Human biology is amazing and nuanced and complex and there is a clear difference between the sexes.

I know that male circumcision isn't as nasty as FGM but I don't see any reason to separate male and female genital mutilation. Both abhorrent albeit in slight different ways. Sorry, just had to point that out. Carry on.

But there do also seem to be differing behaviour patterns in the animal kingdom regarding mating for example. I do often wonder if some of this is more innate than we realise.

I find it fundamentally baffling that people believe that they ‘have been born into the wrong body’.
By whom? And how? Are they talking about souls? Is it a metaphysical thing?
WE ARE OUR BODIES. The rest is just
-stuff and things
-societal expectations linked to gender stereotypes
So surely if we stop gendering stuff and things AND dismantle the hierarchical value system that is gender then that’d be a good start.

There have been several studies linking higher testosterone to violent crime and increased fight or flight responses, but I concur it's probably often used as an excuse for poor self control.

I think testosterone is bandied about as an excuse for a lot of things, personally although I’ve never been tested I wouldn’t be surprised if mine was on the higher side. I’m competitive with a high libido, and whilst I wouldn’t describe myself as an alpha male exactly I am capable of marshalling leadership qualities when a crisis arises.

I read a lot about toxic masculinity these days and I think there is a lot of truth to the concept. How I perceive it manifests is a peculiar kind of entitled masculinity. It is usually all those ideas that surround this social construct of what a “man” is supposed to be only devoid of any actual effort to earn any of the benefits that a competent, virtuous man would as a natural consequence of embodying those qualities.

I think that’s why you guys have such a problem with leftist men as the belief seems to be as long as they signal the right virtues (without actually putting in the effort to embody them) they are due the respect (and let’s face it the sex sometimes), of those around them.

The thing is when you break it down these masculine virtues aren’t really masculine at all they are human, same with the so called feminine virtues. It’s healthiest on both a societal level and for the individual to strive to embody as much of them as you can.

In my more generous moments I often wonder if some this trans stuff comes from a place of men identifying those so-called feminine aspects in themselves and feeling perhaps a deficit of the so-called masculine ones and conclude “Well I must really be a woman then!”

Maybe there is a variance in how men and women approach the question of how to be human, but ultimately aren’t we all striving to end up in the same place?

But I think hormones play a significant part too and it's been proven that men with high testosterone levels act differently on the whole.

I really don’t buy most of this masculine/feminine bull crap these are human traits we are talking about and not the preserve of this or or that gender. Mastery of one’s own life requires embracing of all these concepts. A woman who isn’t assertive or a man who is not empathic is only realising half of their own human capital.

There are TRAs claiming that biology is the social construct and that gender is innate. That even natal women can't call themselves women unless they identify as women and act like women. Some claim they always were female and that their male bodies are in act female. Not all suffer from gender dysphoria, not all intend to alter their body, not all have the same sexual orientation.

Picking up one one specific point of your message (which resounds with me). The patriarchy may steer men into dangerous roles but for this to change women need to be prepared to do them too. IME many women don't want to do these jobs unless they're well paid. For example, I hold a Class 1 (arctic) HGV license and drove for several years before accepting a management role. Even now only 0.5% of drivers are female and I can tell you from my years of experience that most women don't seem interested in this job - same with warehousing, construction, etc, and many of the other jobs I've gained good knowledge of through delivering to worksites.

Also, for me, there's the fact that I knew someone who transitioned and their story and the way they treated and used their loved ones and friends chimes exactly with the testimonies from the trans widows, and with AGP.

I realised I'd been utterly unquestioning of the 'born in the wrong body' narrative, as I think a lot of people are. I had no idea about the trans umbrella.

And then the final straw is the MRA slant. I absolutely did not want to believe that there are still men who hate us so much, but I do

The problem with transgenderism as a concept is that it can't help but reinforce the idea and structure of sex based stereotypes, roles, and expectations. You cannot claim to 'feel like a woman' without reinforcing the idea there is one set of feelings which are assigned to women and that men who experience them are wrong

Yes Bloodmagic.

It's this that brought me here in part. First of all it wasn't even about women for me. It was actually me noticing the pressures on boys to conform to gender stereotypes (I have sons)

Then I started to think (terribly belatedly!! about myself, and about women in general

Like lots of people I sympathised with the turmoil of gender dysphoria and the real risks from other people. But the risks are from MEN. And we are being asked to sort it out. To be nice and sort it out

Thanks for posting this OP

It is really useful to unpick it again in one place

Yes, it’s not necessarily about being attacked by predator, a rapist or whatever. It’s about privacy, comfort and peace of mind. Many TAs and their allies seem to miss that posdibly most women and girls just feel at best - uncomfortable ehen someone male is present where they feel vulnerable, a bit exposed, nervous and even embarrassed in places like loos and gym changing/showet rooms. This is always glossed over and dismissed.

This. They dismiss it because they don't care. Because only male feelings are important.

A particular concern of mine relates to rape victims and how being close to physically male bodies when in a vulnerable position can cause mental health problems ..trauma, flashbacks. Given that a lot of women have been raped, in a typical changing room the will be women who have been raped.

Yes, it’s not necessarily about being attacked by predator, a rapist or whatever. It’s about privacy, comfort and peace of mind. Many TAs and their allies seem to miss that posdibly most women and girls just feel at best - uncomfortable ehen someone male is present where they feel vulnerable, a bit exposed, nervous and even embarrassed in places like loos and gym changing/showet rooms. This is always glossed over and dismissed. I’d like to ask my nice gym with it’s communal changing rooms what their policy is on this - considering a female staff member came in 3 times the other dsy to warn everyone a male worker was coming in.

You're not wrong about any of that but just adding a few other things to think about:

Gender is a spectrum constructed by society as feminine roles and identities all the way along to masculine ones.

There are several different definitions of gender floating about. Gender identity is what is commonly talked about among young people and progressives these days and includes things like 'non-binary'. This is once use of the word, and in this usage gender is a spectrum.
The 2nd wave feminist use of the word gender refers to the roles, stereotypes and expectations which are forced on people because of their sex. In that usage, gender is binary. THIS is for boys and THAT is for girls. Certain things are not assigned for girls or boys (like, idk, eating bread) but when they are its not something you can mix and match individually, these ARE your expectations based on your sex and you can only obey or disobey them. Even when we disobey or say we are 'gender fluid' we still know which things are supposed to be 'for girls' and which are 'for boys'. And because men were the ones who set up these roles the good things are generally designated 'for boys' (e.g. strong, smart, brave) and the opposite of them are 'for girls' (e.g. weak, stupid, helpless). That's why you sometimes hear people say that gender is a hierarchy.

I don't think either definition is necessarily wrong but it's important to be conscious of the ways the word is used. 'Gender' can be used:
-as a euphemism for sex,
-to describe happiness/unhappiness with a persons sex (dysphoria)
-to describe happiness/unhappiness with the roles and expectations assigned to their sex (gender identity)
-to describe the system which issues those assignments (2nd wave usage)
-to personal expression within that system and degree of conformance to the roles (gender expression)

That's 5 different and contradictory uses for "gender", some of which are binary and some of which aren't. So it's a word I try to avoid using as much as possible. It's just way too confusing. The important point is that you couldn't have a spectrum of gender expression or gender expression, without acknowledging the reality that the binary gender system (2nd wave usage) exists in the first place.

Women are currently more fluid and flexible in sitting anywhere on this spectrum because of the earlier waves of feminism. Women are more comfortable with (and often embrace) the masculine elements of their identity whereas men are still stuck in what it means to be a man and wont be so open to their feminine elements.

That's partly because the stuff that was deemed 'feminine' was done so because it was seen as lesser. Intelligence and analytical thinking wasn't arbitrarily designated male, and emotionality wasn't arbitrarily designated female. It was done that way because the former was (and still is) seen as good and valuable while the latter was and is seen as shameful and worthless.
There's also an argument that's it's partly because men are the 'ruling class' and therefore care more about what men do than what women do. As an analogy, the royal family cares a lot more about how their family behaves than they care about what the common people are doing. They hold their own family to strict codes of behavior because it reflects on them and potentially influences their hold on power.
But yes, previous feminist waves also did major good work to allow women more freedom of expression.

Feminism is the advocacy for women's rights based on equality of the sexes, so feminism is about protecting biological females.

Just because I know other feminists will nitpick over this, but technically feminism is for liberation of women rather than for equality. For example, lets say we get rid of all the barriers keeping women out of STEM and find out that women are just naturally shitloads better at it than men, should we arbitrarily limit them so that it's equal? If it's not possible to eliminate rape and sexual assault by men, should we encourage women to rape more so it's equal?
As sojourner truth said "As for intellect, all I can say is, if a woman have a pint, and a man a quart – why can't she have her little pint full? You need not be afraid to give us our rights for fear we will take too much, – for we can't take more than our pint'll hold."
Meaning that whether women are smarter or dumber or weaker or stronger than men, we should still be allowed to achieve our full capacity without limitations.
Most feminists also believe that men and women are roughly equal in their capacities and personalities. But even if we weren't we should still be free.

I am pretty much on the same page with you about everything else.

The problem with transgenderism as a concept is that it can't help but reinforce the idea and structure of sex based stereotypes, roles, and expectations. You cannot claim to 'feel like a woman' without reinforcing the idea there is one set of feelings which are assigned to women and that men who experience them are wrong.

My position is that post op transwomen deserve protections at transwomen. As men. Specifically, as eunuchs.
Just like sojourner truth asked for women, eunuchs should not be denied anything which is allowed to men. They should be allowed to fulfill their own capacity. To participate in mens sports, and co-ed sports, without limit. To create their own teams and spaces. To be represented proportionally in politics. But they are not women, and allowing them into women's spaces and sports would mean limiting our ability to achieve our capacity.
It's not a zero sum game. When women wanted to play sports they didn't get rid of the mens teams or give some of the places on them to women, they just ADDED a womens team. When women demanded the right to bathrooms they didn't do a time share thing where even hours are womens and odd ones are mens, they ADDED womens bathrooms. We can ADD spaces for trans, intersex, and non conforming people too.
The problem is that that would be completely unacceptable to trans advocates, because it's not about inclusion it's about colonization.

(Sorry Reluctant - we cross posted. You got there before I did.)

and Debbie Heyton said that in a world devoid of gender expectations, she would not have transitioned and would just have been a feminine man

I think we are back to distinct populations within the trans umbrella again - transsexual males trying to escape the restrictions of manhood under patriarchy have quite a bit in common with female people rejecting femininity by concurrently rejecting their bodies and becoming trans. Neither have anything in common with the aggressively misogynistic and heterosexual Lady Penis group.

My own trans friend has a lot in common with people such as Debbie Hayton and Kristina Harrison - they will freely tell you that their aim was to not be a man rather than to be a woman.

Either way though - transsexuals may well experience discrimination on the grounds of being failed men as it were, but they do not experience the structural inequality that women face on the basis of their biology - largely reproductive capacity - in a patriarchally-structured world where the default human is male.

actually I'm disagreeing with myself now.

I would say women's oppression is based on two things

1. our biology. this is essentially men's desire to control the means of production of more humans

2. the gendered expectations associated with our sex.

Feminine men suffer from number 2 only.