Trans women

Sarah, self id itself Is not the directs issue, except in that it removes a medical safety net for a group of people with very high self harm rates. Not a minor problem in itself

Self id is pushed by Many of the same people pushing for changes in the equality act or for changes in society that would negatively affect women. And indeed self id law could be seen as promoting those changes in society. especially when misinformation abounds.

@Jamiem80 What is your view on women in history or literature being diagnosed as 'trans men' because they challenged the restrictive gender stereotypes of the time? Are you comfortable with the idea that if a woman 'acts like a man' then she actually is a man?

AllyMcBeagle

Instead anyone will just be able to complete a form

Only people who make a statutory declaration stating that they intend to live as a women for the rest of their lives. And I wouldn't call declaring a statutory declaration just completing a form. Statutory declarations have to be sworn in front of a solicitor or other commissioner for oaths. And the solicitor will advise on the consequences of a false declaration - jail for up to 2 years.

man can legally become a woman without making any changes ... and have a legal right to enter eg women's toilets

In England and Wales it is not the case today that a man who legally becomes a woman has a legal right to enter a women's toilet and it won't be the case if legal self-id goes through.

Also female sports are an issue

There is not an issue due to the proposed move to legal self-id. The GRA specifically excludes sports. Whether and in which circumstances transwomen can compete in female sports is down to the governing bodies.

So in summary none of the concerns you raise would come about as a move to legal self-id.

How ignorant, OP. The feminist position on trans men/TIFs is generally one of concern and sorrow at the possibility that the aggressively gendered, patriarchal society we live in may lead young women to believe that if they are to reject femininity they must also reject their own bodies.

Generally speaking, the majority position on this board is compassion for dysphoric male people who are also rejecting their own bodies - but that dysphoria doesn't mean you are actually a woman. And the majority position is also that the My Penis Is Female brigade constitute an active and aggressive threat to women's places of safety, services, and affirmative action schemes.

HTH.

Sorry I might have unintentionally misgendered JM there. Honestly I can't remember if they prefer "they" pronouns or he/she right now.

If a transman got totally naked in front of a boy who is with his dad in a sex segregated men's changing room I guess it could happen and the boy might also see breasts which have been binded.

There have been loads of threads on concerns for transmen particularly surrounding GNC young girls. The Girl Guides issue had a lot of concern that the Guides wanted to edge out young transmen and support them in leaving.

When Jack Munroe came out as a transman there were endless thread that she was on directly that were gender critical but supportive. (I think she changed back again after hearing a lot of GC common sense)

As everyone else said, no hate for transpeople here.

As the mother of an almost 10 year old boy I can tell you that he would be horrified to have to get undressed in front of girls, or to have girls get undressed in front of him. Let alone adult women.

He doesn't mind getting changed with other boys for swimming at school though.

ToeToToe do you think then that it would be ok for a 10 year old boy to be seeing a vagina

How would he do that exactly?

@Picassospaintbrush hilarious and true.

clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women

Ok firstly no there isn’t. there’s concern that the upcoming self ID measures will put women and girls and children generally at risk. Do you understand the difference? Or are you trying to state as fact something which isn’t true to create a starting point of victim hood? Frame the debate correctly: no one hates trans women, they have a right to exist and to not suffer discrimination and they are protected under law. If self ID comes in it WILL harm women, girls and children.

but nothing about women becoming men well that’s odd isn’t it? Transmen retain female patterns of violent and sexual offending, which is basically a tiny fraction of what men do. They aren’t a threat. And because, as I said above the debate is about safety not blanket hatred of transpeople then it’s not a big issue.

.Do you also frown upon this as above. If we all loathed transpeople we’d be equally against transmen wouldnt we? And we aren’t. Nor are we anti trans. We are concerned for the safety of women and children. Because self ID will damage that.

Actually, I don't know why I bothered. If you'd read anything on this board you'd know the premise/s of your OP were completely flawed

We're not "campaigning against transpeople'

Nor so we wish transpeople not to have rights

Read Cwenthryns post

To answer your various points OP-

clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women not around here there isn’t. No hate. A strong desire to defend the rights and safety of women and girls, yes. No hate. In fact many gender critical transwomen are members here, support ‘our’ points of view, write letters and articles to national newspapers and participate in WPUK events and similar. We are not against transwomen. We are for the rights & safety of women and girls.

nothing about women becoming men. Do you also frown upon this or is it ok and for what reason? again, you’re starting from false assumptions, it’s not about frowning on anyone. There are quite a few posts and threads discussing concerns around transmen, specifically about teenage girls identifying as transgender, the high rate of co-morbidity of factors like autism and sexual abuse and the fact that a strict gender-affirmative model of counselling and support fails to address these; the posited phenomenon of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria - very similar to the well recognised phenomenon of ‘outbreaks’ of anorexia, self harming etc we see in teenage girls, and the overall well-being of transmen - infertility, potential for lifelong health problems caused by hormonal treatment - is a distinct feminist concern. Many of us are acutely aware that if we were X decades younger, we would easily have been swayed by transgender ideology and have been vulnerable to taking life changing decisions that could have left us physically scarred and infertile, when in fact we were simply struggling with puberty and how the world treats women.

surely if you ignore transmen and just allow them to be men then the whole gender argument against transwomen is that much weaker again you’re coming at this from a false position on multiple fronts - firstly, generally feminists are not ignoring transmen (TRAs often seem to, shouting about transwomen rather than transgender people, though) - secondly it’s not about disallowing anyone to ‘be’ anything (if you mean dress, present, identify how they feel works best for them, in fact the opposite - break down those gender stereotype walls!), nor is this a ‘gender argument against transwomen’ - see my answer to your first question. So honestly I don’t know how to answer this point as it makes so many incorrect assumptions. But as others have already explained, one of the main concerns of feminists about transgender ideology is the threat to the rights and safety of women and girls, specifically the provision of sex-segregated female-only spaces, posed by gender self-identification of males. Clearly, transmen do not pose this threat to women.

I have to say I'm concerned that there is no room for masculine girls and they are self declaring as boys, or being repeatedly told they are trans by their peers. That isn't frowning, that's worry, the sort that twists your gut and makes you feel sick.

Men with low testosterone in the states are threatening law suits due to the side effects of the testosterone they were treated with. Where will girls be who take T in ten years time?

I also don’t think it’s true to say that transmen are ignored. There is huge concern that GNC girls are being encouraged to believe that they need to take hormones and have surgery to belong.

if you ignore transmen and just allow them to be men then the whole gender argument against transwomen is that much weaker.

Not really - it’s just less practically relevant.

People also believe that homeopathy is an effective medical treatment and that sex outside marriage is wrong. I might disagree with those beliefs but for the most part it’s possible to ignore them because they don’t impact much on other people.

There isn’t hate.

There is valid concern that female biology and experience is being erased from the public sphere in the name of inclusivity - so that we have terms like menstruators, chest-feeding, pregnant people and parental leave (which is wonderful except when the policies around it ignore the physical reality of pregnancy, birth and recovery)

And strong feelings about the loss of hard won and much needed accomodations, supports etc which are disappearing because some males demand that their belief entitles them to access spaces put aside for the 50% of the population who are female.

Your question about a ten year old seeing naked bodies of opposite sexed people in shared changing facility is interesting - because it presupposes that there are the same concerns. But penises are used to hurt females at an extraordinary rate. Female genitalia in a Male space does not pose the same risks.

Beyond the concerns about language and safety there is also a valid distress at the number of children and young people who are being pushed into a medical conveyer belt and who are being lied to about what science can and can’t achieve. Cutting off healthy body parts, deliberately causing infertility, destroying the possibility of future sexual pleasure - this is happening now.

There are many serious discussions that need to happen desperately and which get shut down.

And much research is neeeded.

And none of this is driven by hatred towards individuals or groups of people.

I disagree that female- man trans don’t create issues for woman. A state government in Australia is about to inact law that will require al information on abortion to refer to pregnant people rather than woman. Look at what’s happen to LLL they now talk about breastfeeding people. If we woman can’t name reproductive act as part of discrimination discussion we will lose our rights

I tend to think that people who can't see the risks of transwomen being in mixes spaces compared to transmen in mixed spaces, must be thick. People who can't see the unfairness, cheating aspect of transwomen competing in sports against women compared to transmen competing against men, again thick.

We have now reached the point where scanning a thread is a piece of sublime artistry:

a BettyFloop type non sequitur,

creates a pause,

followed by thebewilderness voice of sanity.

This board has become poetry in motion.

No, we're not campaigning against being trans. Anyone can be trans - go for it. I'd prefer it if legal safeguarding prevented children from being medicalised - because, well reasons. Being put on a medicalised pathway, possible infertility.

But we are campaigning for sex segregated spaces - spaces - changing rooms, toilets, hospital wards, rape crisis centres - that will be safe for our daughters and granddaughters. Penises are not female, full stop.

Once you take the position that women's right to privacy and dignity is anti trans there is nothing more to discuss. Suffragists were not anti men, though the men say so, and Feminists are not anti men or anti trans. We are pro women's rights.

While I do understand that transwomen potentially pose more threat surely if you ignore transmen and just allow them to be men then the whole gender argument against transwomen is that much weaker.

But we're not campaigning against trans people. We just want to uphold women's rights to eg segregated spaces, segregated sports etc. for the protection and benefit of women. Some of us believe that the best option is to have a third unisex space for transwomen and anyone else who wants to use it whilst retaining separate spaces for women.

If men have an issue with transmen or women posing a transmen in their spaces/sports etc., then they are free to argue their case. But it's not for feminists to argue this for them.

What you need to understand is that women rarely commit crime with their vagina.

Whereas a penis - is hugely involved in sexual crime. There is a whole genre of crime categorised by the male penis - and it is male. There is no other type of penis. It is called rape. 1 in 4 women will be affected by it.

As the mother of 2 boys who have both been 10 yrs old - I would say no, probably not. But it's not the same. The direction of sexual assault is 97-98% male to female. That's biological male, not gender identity.

But you're not really talking about a "vagina" are you? You're presumably talking about a full frontal naked woman or "trans man" - because an actual vagina is not visible, generally, when changing. Not in the same way as a penis is. Unless contortions are involved.

Anyway, no - sex segregated changing is what I would be in favour of.