Trans women

Nogodsnomasters:
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but we do not hate anyone, not at all; we are just women who are concerned about the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

Our grandmothers fought for certain single-sex spaces for a reason. Women and girls' safety, privacy and dignity. Because of female biology, and what happens, when biological males force themselves upon us, regardless of how anyone "identifies".

Men will not see these trans men as men. I'm not being Transphobic here, it is really just seeing my own sex attempting to cross a boundary that men generally will not take seriously. They will not be taken seriously. Men will laugh at them. In my opinion.

Hey Truthwillwin, can I ask you an honest question? Could you please take a look at these four men's stories? Do you really think most men, or people, will not take these 4 men seriously as men and will laugh at them?

@daktun oh yes because all women and girls are vulnerable and must be protected from bad men who pretend to be women.... You're an actual psycho.

98% of sexually violent crime is committed by men. 90% of violent crime committed by men.

20% of women will suffer sexual assault at some point in their lives. The #metoo campaign ran to 11,000,000 posts in under 24 hours.

I think you'll find that the only 'psychos' are men, 98% of the time.

There are 14,000 men in prison for sex offences, and 120 women.

Identifying as a woman does not change that pattern.

I can't work out if you're genuinely ignorant or just goading.

The rest of it oneman is called feminity. Feminity is not womanhood.

@Nogodsnomasters You really don't understand what you are supporting, do you.

You actually think women should pretend a penis is a female organ and not be concerned about the ramifications? Go look at the Girl Guides thread. Girls are being told to leave.

If you wish to present as a sex there is no reason why you should not.

Of course there isn't. That's the basis of gender critical feminism.

Strewth. Why do people get these notions?

@upstart lol!!! Please show me anywhere that I have given my opinion on shared spaces? I have not once and its not even what I'm discussing. I'm discussing feminist women accepting transwomen as real women, not biologically (obviously ffs everyone knows they were biologically born something else) I'm talking about the rest of it. If you wish to present as a sex there is no reason why you should not.

Go fight it out with Stonewall. They are the ones who will call you transphobic because of your narrow minded definition of transgender.

@datun you're just begging to be told to fuck off aren't you?

Oh gosh. Yet more reasons for your demands of access to vulnerable women and girls to be granted.

Keep it coming. You're a one-man peaking machine.

I see trans men as woman and I worry for them the same way I worry about females. Men will not see these trans men as men. I'm not being Transphobic here, it is really just seeing my own sex attempting to cross a boundary that men generally will not take seriously. That's why they are not in the debate. Trans men are not safe either as a result. I would fear for them. They will not be taken seriously. Men will laugh at them. In my opinion. They will be shouted down the same way women are. If they want to fight sexism, they would be better doi g it as their own sex. Similarly, if men want to fight negative masculinity, I believe they should fight it within their own sex. But, their voices, like females are lost. I wish all those who are fighting the masculine/feminine construction could just say f* you all, this is me. There is enough role models out there to enable this. I think we have become complacent though and thought this was a done deal. Clearly, more work needs to be done.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

People do not believe that you can change sex. They may be polite, they may call you the pronouns that are demanded - but you can't legislate for people's beliefs. Transwomen are transwomen. They are not women, they were born men. This is factual, and can never be changed.

You need to peaktrans

By which I mean men who love their penis and say theyre women and call it a clitstick

@Nogodsnomasters apart from the fact that you are ill informed, why are you so determined to force women to share intimate spaces with men?

Why do women have women only spaces and services?

Wikipedia:Chesterton's fence
''Chesterton's fence is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood.''

Just because there doesn't seem to be a reason for this fence to be here doesn't mean there isn't a reason.
Chesterton's fence is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood.

And the people who cause most trouble are those who love their bodies just as they are. That's why transexuals are turning against them as well.

@terful... Yeah it's almost like I believe that, except I don't, and haven't indicated anything of the sort. It's almost like you made up a little story and decided to force it on someone else because you needed something to say....

Because it's not true, Nogods,

And the 'not true' bit about it, regardless of how 'not true' it really is - is threatening women's rights. It;s also threatening all sorts of other things - for example, the language we're allowed to use. Eg. Motherhood, breastfeeding. The pronoun police are on mumsnet - a generally free thinking chat site - already.

We're not having it. We don't "believe" your mantras.

What, now transgender people all have gender dysphoria? And they are all suffering from some sort of mental health issue?

Are we back in the year 2000?

Jaysus, I can't keep up. Isn't that view transphobic?

I can see you haven't yet realised that most transwomen haven't actually got genital dysphoria

@Assassinated don't all transgender people have a diagnosed mental health issue like you said in last post, I believe gender dysphoria is a mental health issue in and of itself. And yes that is who I am referring to. Straight up if someone is mentally struggling with their biological gender, wish to be reassigned physically to the opposite sex AND/OR gender why are you all so determined to tell them that can't, it's not allowed, you won't ever be a real one (man or woman). It's horrible.

It just doesn't seem as common. Men wanting to be women has become very very common, almost so common it is more than what could be expected to 'naturally occur'. This has been brought into the press because of the issues around women's safety when biological males enter their spaces, and also the self ID concerns.
I wonder if this is just about gender dysphoria or whether there are underlying beliefs as well, similarly to how radfems become political lesbians. Hegemonic masculinity determines that only the most macho men succeed, in this hierarchy those who are not sporty, muscular, effortlessly cool, successful and attractive fail as men and are 'lesser'. By that token, I wonder if the transwomen movement attracts men who are not naturally at the top of that hegemonic hierarchy, and who as a result are attracted to another form of masculinity, which is embodied instead in femininity-as transwomen. Finding a place, so to speak. That rather than wanting to be simply women biologically, there is a new breed of women, more superior, more powerful, stronger and more 'today', meaning that the model of success has changed. That doesn't require sex change, just a feeling of belonging and beliefs.
The defence from trans activists could be harsh because it is a place they do not want to lose.
I don't know if that makes sense.

It's not a case of just "wanting" to be in a group @Assassinated this is a proven mental health issue.

Hang on, I thought it wasn't a mental health issue anymore - and they're all gunning for self ID for that reason. Theresa May's speech in Pink News - remember?

We're flayed alive when we try to treat it as a mental health issue.

@upstart please explain the irony in relation to this topic whatsoever?

It's almost as if you believe that a crew of fully transitioned postoperative transwomen and transmen could be dumped on a desert island have penetrative "vaginal" sex and as we say in evolutionary circles survive and reproduce.