A bare breast on a t-shirt at a conference

@MrGHardy So either a boob on a shirt is so offensive it merits crying over or it's so unimportant that no one else would have backed her up. Hm.

There have been respondants on this thread who would actively oppose her if she called him out, such as the woman who claims to buy her husband tshirts like the one under discussion. How is she supposed to trust the people in the room?

@assassinatedbeauty @poopsqueak your comparison of a reaction to queue jumping is interestingly nothing like what happened at the conference. As far as I'm aware this woman didn't scream at anyone, or make any kind of scene in public. She took her upset out of sight, and then had the temerity to write about it.

This. Plus, "someone queue jumping, then being rude when you call them out on it and making it utterly clear that they think queue jumping is A-OK", is a closer analogy to what happened.

@MrGHardy So either a boob on a shirt is so offensive it merits crying over or it's so unimportant that no one else would have backed her up. Hm.

You don't work in tech, which is such a misogynist shithole that women have been hounded out of their jobs by hackers launching technological attacks against their employers, because they dared to speak out against sexism witnessed at a conference. Don't believe me? Look up Adria Richards. So no, the complainant can't assume the support of other people in the room.

And, yet again, she wasn't crying over the tshirt, she was crying and shaking because when she said to the wearer that it was an inappropriate thing to wear to present at a conference, he was rude to her and posted a defiant selfie on twitter.

Those are not the only two options either, Mr.

@poopsqueak your comparison of a reaction to queue jumping is interestingly nothing like what happened at the conference. As far as I'm aware this woman didn't scream at anyone, or make any kind of scene in public. She took her upset out of sight, and then had the temerity to write about it.

Critique her reaction in great detail if you like. But others will critique you for being overly concerned with critiquing women's reactions rather than the actual cause of the issue.

@MrGHardy I wonder how you would react if I was a woman. I hate to drag the user into this but this is from the first page:

I'm trying really hard to think of circumstances where crying and shaking in the toilet is not a huge overreaction...and failing

I appreciate where you are coming from, but not every opinion by a man that does not agree with yours is "a man coming to tell you what you should think".

If you go upthread, I have talked about being scared to send an email to a supportive manager about finding a Page Three Girl on an office wall at my workplace.

Go to www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3243189-Uncomfortable-about-unisex-toilets-at-work?pg=20&order= and search in the page for "My dad was a manager" to find out what happened to one woman who spoke out against workplace harassment. Speaking out is terrifying and can come with substantial adverse consequences, so it's not at all surprising that the complainant was shaking and crying.

If you were a woman with your opinion, I'd call you a handmaiden.

Obviously you can, poop, because here you and several others are blaming the person for having a major adrenaline trigger reaction to misogyny at this business conference.

It's just a reaction. Why is it such a big deal? Is it possible that some of you have never had your buts kicked by adrenaline? How fortunate for you.
I feel jelly. In my job it happened to me, all of us, at least once every week or two.

It's not offensive. It's inappropriate and sexist. What reaction it caused is not the important part of the story, it's the behaviour of the man in question who chose to wear it whilst speaking at a conference. Why are you more interested in policing the woman's reaction?

So either a boob on a shirt is so offensive it merits crying over or it's so unimportant that no one else would have backed her up. Hm.

Heh yes

Obviously it would have been very well received if she had stood up amongst all the attendees at this talk and accused him of being a sexist twat. Yeah she would have got loads of support from the audience and I'm sure the bloke would have taken it in good humour....

Standing up and challenging him directly - yeah that’s easy! We could have solved racism centuries ago never mind sexism if only individual oppressed people had been more challenging!

According to the woman involved she confronted him after his talk and he was verbally abusive towards her. That's what resulted in her upset, plus the conference organiser's apology which she felt was inadequate and minimising.

Again, the focus is all on this woman and her apparently outrageous and appalling reaction rather than the genuinely poor behaviour of the man who chose to wear this shirt. It's clearly much more important to address the ways it is acceptable for women to react rather than the behaviour of these types of men.

I wonder how you would react if I was a woman. I hate to drag the user into this but this is from the first page:

I'm trying really hard to think of circumstances where crying and shaking in the toilet is not a huge overreaction...and failing

I appreciate where you are coming from, but not every opinion by a man that does not agree with yours is "a man coming to tell you what you should think".

@Teacuphiccup I’m going to start wearing a t shirt of a passive looking young man with his cock out and see how long it takes for men to feel uncomfortable.

I'm tempted by a t-shirt quoting the Talmudic response to incels and wear it to the next tech show I go to. And see how long I manage to stay for before being told to cover it or leave...

@mrghardy Sorry but in my eyes a total overreaction. Crying in the toilet, really? How about standing up during the talk and challenging him directly

She challenged him in-person afterwards and it didn't go well. Challenging him during the talk would have gone just as badly. If you read the rest of the thread, we've addressed why it's entirely reasonable and understandable that she would be angry enough to cry.

But hey, you're a man, so despite never being objectified in your entire life, you still think you know better than women.

Just for you, MrG.

Well clearly completely inappropriate shirt but that kind of level of upset...plus it was one person, everyone else while probably also not being happy, like yourself, did not feel the need to go all crazy. Sorry but in my eyes a total overreaction. Crying in the toilet, really? How about standing up during the talk and challenging him directly, rather than back-handed through victimizing yourself on Twitter.

Women who join in with misogynists in censuring other women are given crumbs (such as endorsement of their "women in tech" board that exists to make women conform to patriarchy) that they mistake for "treatment as equals".

Good way of putting it Metro.
Of course it is all very conditional. If those women get too 'uppity' and actually promote the cause of females in any meaningful way, then watch the about-face.

Maybe in real life I’ve been given the benefit of the doubt or my female conversation partners haven’t wanted to engage in what they thought might be an unproductive tangent.

A degree of trust and care is necessary for women to give men feedback on their behavior.
The reason for women not to give a self declared MRA feedback are obvious to the meanest intelligence.

“avoid me!”

Yep, it certainly works like that for me.

One does wonder if a woman who buys her husband girly t-shirts is trying to make sure that no other woman gives him a second glance. It’s got to be as good as a sign around his neck saying “avoid me!”.

Umm well yes I don’t frequent places where feminists congregate very often. I looked up the etymology of hysterical before I posted. I think there are lots of informal ways I would use to describe both men and women, chicks, girls, boys, lads, lasses, dudes, ladies & gents etc.

I totally get when certain terms are used mostly as perjoratives such as bitches which is why I would never use them. My lean is to use language that make the people around me comfortable, rather than argue the toss over what I meant vs how it was received. As it doesn’t half slow down conversation and communication.

Maybe in real life I’ve been given the benefit of the doubt or my female conversation partners haven’t wanted to engage in what they thought might be an unproductive tangent. However if I’m not getting the feedback I can hardly course correct, but I’m actually happy to do so in the spirit of mutual respect, tolerance and to keep productive discussion going, in the spirit of that apologies for taking up too much space explaining myself, but I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

Quite an interesting response to asking 'Is this the very first time someone has pointed out what 'hysterical' means and that 'chicks' could be offensive to women?'

I am genuinely stunned that this is news to you. Anyway - as you were.

@LaSqrrl: (somehow, I feel compelled to keep pointing out 'ALL women') as there are women that think they are 'special' and 'cool', and accepted by the boys' club - bad news snowflakes, you actually are regarded as second class - patriarchy does not view their handmaidens any better than the rest of womankind, but they are happy that you will take some of the misogynist workload off them.

The phrases that springs to mind are "Uncle Tom syndrome", "Stockholm Syndrom", and "traumatic bonding", in particular the latter. Women who join in with misogynists in censuring other women are given crumbs (such as endorsement of their "women in tech" board that exists to make women conform to patriarchy) that they mistake for "treatment as equals".