Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

I don't think the show will have had the effect MB hoped for.

I think a lot of people will see just how shallow it all is - it's all about the looks & me me me.

I thought it was a lot more balanced than I expected - I thought it was going to be the Thought Police blasting "Trans is Right" into our heads.....

It may only be 7am but a great big double to Lucy Mangan - it's the first time I've seen her write about this.

Quote from MB from the programme:

I’ve never said that I’m a cisgender woman … I identify more with the female side in a world that gives me two options

So many questions - is 'non-binary' not a thing any more? Do you have to identify with your female side to be a woman? Is the Labour Party officially endorsing the idea that there are only two options?

I can't believe this thread...someone has posted a news report to show that a transwoman is capable of committing a crime (torture and murder in this case) but people are doing everything they can to ignore the point of the post.
twitter.com/JeanHatchet/status/996811753437712384

@TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld
Yes - iirc if you are not happy to use someone’s preferred pronouns you can use their initials or “they”, but cannot use “he” for a transwoman for example.

Watching it now. MB is saying that her plastic surgery is different to other kinds because it is to make her feel more at home in herself rather than being about vanity. I’d argue that that’s why most people have plastic surgery?

Just finished watching on +1. You could see MB itching to talk over Venice Allen!

Are there new pronoun rules here, have MNHQ issued updated guidelines? would someone mind pointing me at them?

Transgender identified males argue they are the exception but it seems to me it is a hard sell when nearly half the transgender identified males currently incarcerated are sex offenders.

But the way the narrative is twisted from "we fear sex offending males may abuse the legislation to gain access to women" to "are you saying transwomen are sex offenders" and "it's just an administrative change, nobody will be able to abuse it" makes me very distrustful of the transactivist narrative we're being fed.

Yes, exactly.

Watching on the +1. It's making me really, really want to attend the next Women's Place meeting! And yes, would love to see what the Gogglebox viewers think of this programme - especially keen to hear from Giles and Mary!

God, sorry for the wall of text. (Well, I did use paragraphs.)

I don't see it as any different. To me this is a concerted push to remove voyeurism and indecent exposure as offences in sex segregated spaces.

Oh I absolutely agree.

This from the grauniad:

Bergdorf argues that trans women experience much violence (from cis men, it is implied) and are not violent towards women. But this is, surely, not the fear? The fear is that it is precisely not trans women who will cause trouble, but the cis men bent on intimidating women who will use the new law as another way to do so.

Is spot on. We're not allowed to talk about men being able to abuse self ID to gain access to changing rooms etc. We get the off-the-cuff response "transwomen are no danger to women" - which is, in itself quite dishonest - because there are transwomen sex offenders serving prison sentences.

But the way the narrative is twisted from "we fear sex offending males may abuse the legislation to gain access to women" to "are you saying transwomen are sex offenders" and "it's just an administrative change, nobody will be able to abuse it" makes me very distrustful of the transactivist narrative we're being fed.

Venice is very eloquent.

Goggle box is great, a window into people's real interpretations of tv land. It'll be interesting to see what they make of Genderquake.

I'm missing it right now though :(

Good review by Lucy. Glad the Guardian women I enjoyed reading haven't all been brainwashed by Owen

Pretty much any other context, it would be indecent exposure.

I don't see it as any different. To me this is a concerted push to remove voyeurism and indecent exposure as offences in sex segregated spaces.

Decent enough review there from the Graun. I wish there was a proper examination of real concerns as part of this genderquake nonsense though.

The twitter comments - ouch. I think people realise women are women and TIM's are TIM's.

But the important thing is Gogglebox has just come on - and I have never watched this programme in my life. (How have I missed this? I mean I'd heard of it, obvs) It's good

Anyway, so being a woman is about looking feminine. Glad we've sorted that out.

I did think she gave Venice a fair hearing, to be fair. And she showed lots of footage of Miranda - although it's fairly obvious Miranda is a transexual, Munroe did not make that explicit on the show, whhich perhaps she should have done.

But she seemed very disapproving of Posie's question "Does my 11yr old daughter have the right to use a female changing room without seeing an adult penis?" - or perhaps she felt uncomfortable? Because it's a brave person that would actually answer "No" to that. Pretty much any other context, it would be indecent exposure.

And this is the crux of it, for me. (As well as other ways women are losing out to transwomen - sports, AWS etc)

Will stop waffling on now - DH has gone to bed, so I've no one to chat to about it

I imagine they will. They won't like the brain scan thing because they know full well most of them wouldn't meet the criteria. The heterosexual ones may know that in that limited research done on trans identified males which controlled for sexual orientation, it doesn't suggest that they have anything in common with women in terms of brain structure.