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Original poster

Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

415 replies

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 14:38

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

OP posts:
Pratchet · 17/05/2018 08:03

I know right!

TwittleBee · 17/05/2018 08:00

The stonewall umbrella even includes 'feminine men' and 'masculine women' as trans

Blimey! Does this mean I float in and out of being trans then? Shock Hmm

flowersonthepiano · 17/05/2018 08:00

Being trans is not what makes trans women a potential threat. It's being male that does.

Can we repeat and repeat and repeat the above every time TRAs tell us transwomen are not a threat until someone actually listens! They don't want to hear it. They drown out the voice of anyone who tries to say it.

TwittleBee · 17/05/2018 07:59

Ah thanks for that clarity! Still so confused though, surely they would want people to be breaking down gender stereotypes rather than ingraining them deeper?

Pratchet · 17/05/2018 07:51

It's true Merrymouse. The stonewall umbrella even includes 'feminine men' and 'masculine women' as trans, which is a bit rude, just going on what people look like.

merrymouse · 17/05/2018 07:47

I’m sure there are many different reasons why people identify as trans. It’s as pointless to try to classify them as good or bad as it is to classify women or men as good or bad. The issue isn’t relative virtue.

The issue is the need to recognise women objectively as a group who share common biology.

Pratchet · 17/05/2018 07:46

I assume because they don't have sex dysphoria but instead they have gender dysphoria. They don't like the social role ascribed to men. And it's easier to force women to downgrade their safety and comfort than it is to ask men to be more inclusive in their social role.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 17/05/2018 07:45

Thanks @therealposieparker, while you're here, what is the name of the younger woman who spoke at the Jam Jar? I thought her speech was really moving and very important.

I'm just reading the James Kirkup article & he's picked up some of the points she made blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/

current thread here
[[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3251545-The-Silencing-of-the-Lesbians}}

OP posts:
TwittleBee · 17/05/2018 07:44

Can someone educate me please?
I'm not understanding how someone who claims that they have gender dysphoria will prioritise vanity cosmetic surgery over the removal of their genitals? Surely thing that most identifies them as being a man is a penis etc?

AsAProfessionalFekko · 17/05/2018 07:44

There have always been loud voices who will push any 'extreme' agenda that is trendy/outrageous in everyone's face at every opportunity. Whether it's race, sex, even fashion - any opinion they don't like is sneered at, shouted down or threatened.

Sadly social media has given a sinister twist to such groups, and they are emboldened to use a louder, more aggressive voice to try to get the rest of the world to fall on line with their views/opinions. A lack of critical thinking, a more open society and seemingly impossible balanced debate fuels this. Plus the sinister backers/manipulators who play their 'useful idiots' like violins.

Why are people so quick to accept rather than question? Following news and agendas on 280 character soundbites, that's why.

As the saying goes, 'we need to talk'.

Moonkissedlegs · 17/05/2018 07:37

Munroe does have a penis. Which I assume is involved at some point in Munroe's 'lesbian' relationship.

I wonder if contraception is an issue in that relationship, quite unusual for lesbians to have to worry about that stuff if so. I wonder who it is out of Munroe and Munroe's girlfriend who would actually have to carry the burden of an unwanted child if contraception failed?

WaitrosePigeon · 17/05/2018 07:36

It's kind of irrelevant IMO. However much surgery a man has does not make them into a woman

Completely agree. I was just wondering that’s all..

user838383 · 17/05/2018 07:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 17/05/2018 07:35

It's like debating with 1st year philosophy students. Or 13 year olds. Or socialist student union reps (ohhh many pub debates when we were students with rich boys trying to be 'down with the workers).

Just state your opinion and back it up with facts. Not buzz words and nonsense phrases repeated over and over and OVER again.

Moonkissedlegs · 17/05/2018 07:34

You do know that could mean there are TWO transwomen in jail and ONE of them is a sex offender?

Well yes, it could. But it's not the case.

Being trans is not what makes trans women a potential threat. It's being male that does.

I don't see how a man who becomes trans suddenly becomes less of a threat: in fact no threat at all apparently?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/05/2018 07:32

Has Munroe still got a penis?

Although relevant I suppose if forming an opinion on whether MB is dysphoric or AGP.

Moonkissedlegs · 17/05/2018 07:32

Watching it now. MB is saying that her plastic surgery is different to other kinds because it is to make her feel more at home in herself rather than being about vanity. I’d argue that that’s why most people have plastic surgery?

It's cos Munroe is speshul innit.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/05/2018 07:31

Has Munroe still got a penis?

It's kind of irrelevant IMO. However much surgery a man has does not make them into a woman.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 17/05/2018 07:30

There is a great deal of statistical and legal info on the Fairplay for Women website.

fairplayforwomen.com

OP posts:
IIIustriousIyIllogical · 17/05/2018 07:27

&You do know that could mean there are TWO transwomen in jail and ONE of them is a sex offender?&

We know how stats and percentages work cheers, we also know that there are considerably more than 2.

And BTW - "Not cool" - really? Give the keyboard back to mum now.....

WaitrosePigeon · 17/05/2018 07:27

Has Munroe still got a penis?

therealposieparker · 17/05/2018 07:27

That is correct, they left as soon as the speeches were over....

RatRolyPoly · 17/05/2018 07:24

nearly half the transgender identified males currently incarcerated are sex offenders.

Do you understand stats?

You do know that could mean there are TWO transwomen in jail and ONE of them is a sex offender?

Perhaps half of children currently incarcerated are thieves. Says nothing about how likely children are to steal.

Misleading use of stats. Not cool.

Original poster
R0wantrees · 17/05/2018 07:22

Can someone who was there confirm at what point Munroe left the Bristol meeting please?

In the program last night Munroe says she stayed to listen to the speakers but couldn't face the questions. Is that the case because I had the impression that she'd left earlier?

OP posts:
Kyanite · 17/05/2018 07:20

Yes, only women who identify as women can call themselves women, apparently. So start behaving like your gender stereotype!

It's the Tories who are in power and have been looking into the changing the GRA, Labour just gets the press because of all women shortlists. All the main parties support it.

Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5