Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

Munroe certainly hasn't been influencing on body positivity or against stereotypes that's for sure...

Influencing what and changing what though? What has Munroe actually done apart from identify as trans and spend lots of money on vanity products?

Aren't these awards designed to make something of nothing? An elitist set of randoms using fake awards to pad out them and their kid's CVs?

Is Munroe Bergdorf high profile though?

She was awarded one of the top ten online influencers of 2018 by the British LGBT awards.

She also won the disruptor/change-maker of the year award at the Cosmopolitan Influencer awards April 2018.

I think there may have been more...

So I guess she is, if you're into that sort of thing :)

Admittedly I know nothing about fashion and modelling so to me Bergdorf seems like just another posh shallow socialite type who gets picked for reality tv based on their contacts list and a lack of anything else they can do. Become famous for being pictured at places, with people.

I cannot stand Lees but PL would have done a much better job at the debate and at last night's programme for the trans side, those of us opposed to this ideology are probably lucky that C4 hired MB not PL.

PL just repeats 'suicide' over and over and uses straw man arguments, but only in a situation where PL isn't going to actually have someone push them to expand on their position.

PL says that they don't take part in debates because they 'won't debate their right to exist' but it's actually because they know that if their argument was dissected they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The issue is the need to recognise women objectively as a group who share common biology.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't assign virtue points to different trans people. All trans people have their own reason for transitioning, their own story, their own unique experience.

None of that should detract from the issue of ensuring that women as a sex class are protected and not erased.

Is Munroe Bergdorf high profile though? It seems to me that someone is pushing MB forward for publicity opportunities. It used to be always Paris Lees getting these Glam Trans roles. I cannot stand Lees but PL would have done a much better job at the debate and at last night's programme for the trans side, those of us opposed to this ideology are probably lucky that C4 hired MB not PL.

A transwoman did recently pose for Playboy. I'm not sure who it was, but they had their back to the camera. Comments from Playboy readers on Twitter were not progressive.

I never understand why a transwoman like Caroline Paige isn’t chosen to front up documentaries like this.

It’s the programme style - lots of documentaries aimed at young people are about a high profile person going on a personal journey - BBC3 has loads of them.

I just saw on Twitter that Munroe has recently posed for Playboy... that is interesting if they do have a penis...

But it must be quite galling to have done all this work breaking down barriers for years and years only for the glamorous models to hop in and define things - though maybe the riling up of trans issues to the forefront of media etc is welcomed. I don’t really know.

I wouldn’t want a beauty-obsessed, selfie-obsessed natal woman representing what women are either really so perhaps in the end it comes down to taste and our own individual identities, whereever they lie, and whatever our sex.

C4 probably want the controversy of having MB facing it though as will get more notice and pull more viewers?

I never understand why a transwoman like Caroline Paige isn’t chosen to front up documentaries like this. She is part of Stonewall so presumably can give the same basic messages rather than being seen as a Miranda Yardley opposer. Paige is a far more convincing role model of womanhood than Bergdorf - brave, a pioneer, openly interested in a wide range of things, hard working and with a media presence which is not focused on looks, not vain. I may not agree with the message - well I don’t - but I sure as hell would listen to someone like her giving it more seriously than I do Bergdorf. There must be so many transwomen like her amidst the selfie-obsessed ones I don’t like the same way I abhor all women who live by the surgeons knife and rate their value by their perceived feminine sexiness.

Private Eye reviewed genderquake and the debate that followed it, how the debate was controlled plus the Peter Kaye unscripted which attracted howls of protest the "More than a woman" part.

They conclude:

.."but the big question - of whether one community should be permitted a veto on media coverage of itself - remains stubbornly unresolved"

p 14, Eye no 1470.

grandplans ooo that is interesting. I read, on a Huffington Post article, that there is evidence to show that transwomen have the same pattern and statistics for crime as men - unfortunately that article didn't link where she found those pieces of evidence though

Being trans is not what makes trans women a potential threat. It's being male that does.

Quite. And there is no evidence or data to show us that transition lessens risk at all. Since single sex spaces are all about managing risk, there is therefore equally no evidence to remove them.

Personally, and I realise it makes people feel uncomfortable when I say it, I think AGP trans people represent an increase risk. Because fragile identity that relies on continual outside validation + narcissistic rage when that validation is not forthcoming = a pretty clear increased risk factor. These people get aggressive enough on social media when validation is not forthcoming - who would want that aggression coming their way in any physical space, let alone one that is supposed to be a place of safety for women?

I looked up the stats of female prisoners the other day and came up with 3% out of a population of just over 4,000 UK women prisoners are there for sex-related crime.

However, it's important to note, that figure includes transwomen who are housed in female prisons, not only natal women.

Even if that figure was 100% natal women (which it isn't), I don't understand how anyone can say transwomen aren't a threat to women when you compare 50% to 3%.

There is clearly a difference in behaviour and criminality. Transwomen do not take on female patterns of behaviour just because they ID as a women. Therefore it's quite clear we should treat them -as a group - as a potential threat to the safety of women and children, just as we do ordinary men - as a group.

What is the percentage of male prisoners who are sex offenders, does anyone know?

I love Lucy Mangan. So glad to see her write about this. Carol Modgley in the Times is quite good too.

Rowan

Nicole Jones. She's great

NotTerfNorCis thanks for that link.

So, it shows 113 UK trans prisoners, with 57 of them sex offenders or the most dangerous category A prisoner.

nearly half the transgender identified males currently incarcerated are sex offenders.

Do you understand stats?

You do know that could mean there are TWO transwomen in jail and ONE of them is a sex offender?

It doesn't mean that, unless the sex offender was only part sex offender. If it's nearly half then by definition there must far more than two trans offenders.

In fact there are a lot more than two. You can see a breakdown of the stats here.

So, wait a minute.

He still has a penis but thinks he’s a woman? His programme last night was about what makes a woman bIt he still has a penis? He’s in a lesbian relationship and he still has a penis? Which I’m sure he uses - so, he’s a man?

Brain. Fucked.

Still so confused though, surely they would want people to be breaking down gender stereotypes rather than ingraining them deeper?

I know - it's like when you fall asleep half way through a film and then can't work out what is going on.