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Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

415 replies

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 14:38

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

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JoanSummers · 17/05/2018 14:05

"You answered more As than Bs which makes you a Scorpio!" Sort of thing.

Who would really trust the work of a research group who turned out results like this to participants over Skype or.whatever it was. MB wanted them to confirm a female brain and they gave MB the most vague response they could. God knows why (misled about the sort of programme it was maybe?). Embarrassing all round and I think they probably worked that out around the time MB was giggling over the hairclip.

So so hard to use unclear pronouns here when it is so glaring what sex MB is and tbf they did mention themselves that they are male.

JoanSummers · 17/05/2018 14:01

I took it to be pandering. Research takes time and is about gathering information and analysing results. I think they were pushed to give a 'result' like it was a Cosmo personality quiz or a sports day race and took the easy option of confirming what MB identified themselves as.

cistersofterfy · 17/05/2018 13:54

They didn't really explain the science but I assume they were looking at the questionnaires and seeing whether they could categorise people into different groups based on their answers and then to see whether they could see any structural or functional brain differences.

At no point did they say that they had identified that people have different brains. They just said that they'd categorised MB into the transgender group, which I took to mean their answers matched the transgendered group more closely than either the male or the female group.

TwittleBee · 17/05/2018 13:47

R0wantrees thank you

It really does come across that people like IW and MB are just that, totally ignorant. Or perhaps they are just narcissistic. Either way, I am unsure why it appears that some transwomen believe that their right to choose their identity should trump the right of women to their identity and their safety?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 17/05/2018 13:33

"And given that many if not most women still remove their natural leg hair, is that a sign that we're all uncomfortable with our bodies / dysphoric in some way? "

No, other people are uncomfortable with our bodies.

LoonvanBoon · 17/05/2018 13:17

Thanks joanSummers, I suspected that the 'science bit' might be something like that. I'm glad I didn't bother watching it.

I'm a bit shocked that the i review is quite so uncritical then - it doesn't raise any questions or issues and seems pretty sycophantic in tone. Maybe the writer just feared getting a load of abuse.

Terfing · 17/05/2018 12:59

@SaraTree

That is some very flattering lighting they've given Munroe!

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R0wantrees · 17/05/2018 12:56

THis was the article that Jenni Murray wrote:
(extract)

"This time I was speaking to another trans woman, India Willoughby, who had hit the headlines after appearing on the ITV programme Loose Women.

India held firmly to her belief that she was a “real woman”, ignoring the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man. In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

We are taught as boys that assertiveness and aggression are good things. There’s a danger, even now, that I’ll act as a man. In a group of women I can become dominant
She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her armpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?"

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

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TwittleBee · 17/05/2018 12:54

R0wantrees ah jeeez!

Original poster
R0wantrees · 17/05/2018 12:52

TwittleBee
Jenni Murray wrote an article in The Sunday Times magazine and was publicly rebuked:

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/05/jenni-murray-transgender-not-real-women-sunday-times-magazine

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SaraTree · 17/05/2018 12:49

Screenshot of MB's Tweet re: Playboy... Hmm

JoanSummers · 17/05/2018 12:49

Hairclip not haircut

JoanSummers · 17/05/2018 12:48

Bergdorf implied that the results were based on the brain scan, the researcher specifically mentioned the questionnaire not the scan from what I recall - I'd have to watch it again (groan) but it seemed to me like a the researcher was being very careful to give the result to MB that they had identified MB as "transgender".

There was absolutely no evidence provided for their findings. It wasn't like they pointed to brain scan images and said this bit or that bit.. there wasn't a 'science bit' with technical language and numbers etc was there? No examples were given of the sort of questions on the questionnaire.

We saw Bergdorf lie down for a scan, the the researchers bemusedly asking MB to get back up and remove a haircut because it was screwing up their reading, cue MB giggling. They did the scan then cut to MB sat in a hotel room filling in a form or thinking about filling in a form, something like that. A small bit of MB narrating nothing of note. Then cut to MB starting a Skype call or something to get their results, and an awkward "we have identified your results as trans gender" moment followed by MB pretending to look like they'd just had all their dreams confirmed. It played out a bit like getting pregnancy test results in front of an audience. Really really weird.

TwittleBee · 17/05/2018 12:46

R0wantrees what! Please say they addressed that horribly sexist view after they stated that

nauticant · 17/05/2018 12:30

Regarding the comment about posing for Playboy, I was browsing through the #whatmakesawoman hashtag on twitter on saw some of the photos (I think). All I'll say is that much strategic use was made of shadow.

I could go googling but that really does not appeal.

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R0wantrees · 17/05/2018 12:27

It was hearing India Willoughby on Woman's Hour last year saying that a woman not shaving her legs was 'dirty' which made me aware of some of these issues. I had to listen again on catch-up to check that I hadn't imagined it. The discussion was about the sexist requirements of dress within the hospitality industry specifically about heeled-shoes..

I found it bizarre and so regressive having not heard such opinions voiced since the early 1980s when I was at school.

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busyboysmum · 17/05/2018 12:26

The brain scan combined with some sort of questionnaire (do you like pink? etc possibly) came up with the result that MB's brain wasn't female. It was transgender. I was also wondering if this means it is dysphoric and how similar other dysphoric brains (eg anorexics) would be on a similar scan.

TwittleBee · 17/05/2018 11:57

many if not most women still remove their natural leg hair, is that a sign that we're all uncomfortable with our bodies / dysphoric in some way

Don't be so silly, women who shave are not suffering with dysphria but embracing your femininity....

Seriously though, MB kept saying she realised she was portraying a stereotype of a woman, a social construct, but why does this make her a Woman? And surely this just shows they are needing some guidance and support about how it is okay to not fit into society and we should be breaking these bloomin constructs not reinforcing them!

JoanSummers · 17/05/2018 11:52

I got the impression that the German researchers were being very careful about what they said and that they were a bit nonplussed about MB's visit.

LoonvanBoon · 17/05/2018 11:36

Has anyone seen Elisa Bray's review of this programme in the i? I didn't watch it so have no idea of how far the review represents Munroe Bergdorf's position, but it's very sympathetic towards her.

It contains a few sentences though that struck me as being really bizarre and have left me confused.

According to Elisa Bray: "So uncomfortable was she in the male body in which she was born, that Bergdorf would shave her legs with her mum's razor".

Can anyone unpack this for me? How is feeling the need / desire to shave your legs a sign of being uncomfortable in your male body? Women's legs aren't naturally hairless, and women can have plenty of conspicuous leg hair.

Or is it saying that in some way wanting to rid yourself of body hair is a female thing, and therefore is a sign of Bergdorf's innate female gender? But that would be ridiculous too, as clearly leg shaving is a cultural expectation that women are taught to have. I remember starting to shave my legs after receiving comments about my leg hair from boys at school, and that was the same for several of my friends.

And given that many if not most women still remove their natural leg hair, is that a sign that we're all uncomfortable with our bodies / dysphoric in some way?

As I say, I've no idea if this review is representative of the programme, but to focus on Bergdorf's attitude to leg hair, of all things, seems strange and very superficial. I assumed that body dysphoria involved unhappiness with the appearance of primary and secondary sexual organs, not with something - body hair - that men and women both have, and to which attitudes are entirely culturally determined.

I've just read upthread that Bergdorf has not had 'bottom surgery', which makes me even more baffled as to why leg hair would be upsetting.

The i review also says this:

"It was interesting to see the scientific angle as she headed to a German hospital, where research on transgender brains showed that gender is a spectrum as opposed to binary".

My immediate reaction is that this must be a misrepresentation of the science but I'd be grateful if anyone could tell me what the German hospital research was about. I wasn't aware that there was any scientific evidence that gender identity (as opposed to sex) even exists, let alone how many types of it there might be.

And if research on 'transgender brains' has shown something interesting about gender, how could that, in principle, tell us anything about non transgender people's brains, or about the 'gender spectrum'?

JoanSummers · 17/05/2018 11:31

Bergdorf, Bunce, Susie Green, and Playboy. Noone could suggest that this group could be harmful to the goal of women's liberation?! They all seem so nice.

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R0wantrees · 17/05/2018 11:08

Bergdorf is right up there with Phil Bunce in the awards.

I learned a lot about Philip Bunce yesterday on the thread below and am unsure about his apparent significance with respect The Girl Guides policies.

He definitely seems to be very influential.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3250175-Girl-Guides-Panel-discussion-at-Speakers-house-woman-male-woman-male-male-male

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WaitrosePigeon · 17/05/2018 11:01

I just caught up on it.

She’s got a penis hasn’t she.

Picassospaintbrush · 17/05/2018 10:57

Bergdorf is right up there with Phil Bunce in the awards.

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R0wantrees · 17/05/2018 10:35

She was awarded one of the top ten online influencers of 2018 by the British LGBT awards.
She also won the disruptor/change-maker of the year award at the Cosmopolitan Influencer awards April 2018.

My concern is the extent to which due to the way social media operates that there are many social & demographic groups whose influential power in media and politics is increasingly diminished and whose voices are so much less likely to be heard.

In the context of 'what makes a woman' this seems especially pertinent.

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