Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

All those mean women - so cold-hearted they don't allow males to park on them and feed until their hearts and bellies are content

That pretty much sums it up.

doesn't give a shit what women actually think about self ID

That was glaring, but it was just bog-standard male privilege.

All those mean women - so cold-hearted they don't allow males to park on them and feed until their hearts and bellies are content....

Tbh I don't care what MB feels that being female is. She can do what she wants. That's ok. But the problem is where she doesn't give a shit what women actually think about self ID. And the potential risks to women, when it gives men the freedom to stop women from challenging them. Although she wants to buy in to being female, she ain't a feminist. And thats a load of misogynist crap. I guess that's the whole point about all of this really. Its about what some men want. Fuck what the women want or need. Imo someone who is a feminist in the true sense of the word would consider the issue and concerns of the group they want to be part of. And try and find a solution that helps everyone. But that's not what a small but loud group of transwomen want. They just want the right to do whatever they want. Fuck the knock on effect and consequences of that to others.

I watched this on catch up and I was surprised I didn't totally detest MB as I expected to.

The surgery was horrific, all to have a few mm shaved off their forehead and have their chin altered. I didn't really see a huge difference afterwards but obviously MB did. Don't quite understand why they would go through that but not 'bottom surgery' if their dysphoria was that bad.

The main thing I was left with was that MB looked far more feminine with their natural hair, after cutting out the cheesy looking braids (or wearing the pink wig).

I just watched it and my take away was the unequivocal feeling that MB is a gay male with body dysmorphia. Also a strange feeling of confusion. Why does MB want to be seen as a woman?

I know that there was a lot of deifying models - something I've never done myself, but a lot of gay men go into fashion don't they?

The whole thing in the questionnaire at the end about always being playful, flirtatious and susceptible to flattery - I don't know any woman who would describe themselves that way - but definitely gay men.

It seemed a bit sad really - that lack of self-acceptance. I wonder if the turning point happened around the time of that awful attack.

Watching now - thing I’m most pissed off about is that they’ve used the Vikings theme song as background music.

Can anyone unpack this for me? How is feeling the need / desire to shave your legs a sign of being uncomfortable in your male body?

An aspect of gender ideology is that people are inherently feminine or masculine and therefore we must perform our gender to be our authentic selves.
That is the reason they invented the category enby, non binary, to cover the majority of the population that does not perform masculinity and femininity.
Sex is a verb and never ever ever a noun.

Not surprisingly when you unpack that baggage a great deal of misogyny spills out.

I am not sure this programme worked the magic with your average viewer as MB would have hoped. I haven't spoken about this at work (HR and all that) but one of my colleagues watched it. So started the discussion, pretty gentle ( I was restrained). I just said 'surely they should be fighting for their own spaces. I dont want my granddaughter to be confronted by a penis in a women's changing room'. They all agreed that would not be right. I said I would support trans women if they fought for their own space.

Then I said something about being pretty with false hair and nails and cosmetic surgery does not make a woman, especially if they have a penis. I was told she had refused to answser the question about whether she still had a penis, which everyone said tells it all. And they all agreed MB could not be a woman with a penis. So a bit of a home goal. Women are seeing through the smoke and mirrors.

@Ereshkigal

What did ralf little actually do/say? I keep seeing him mentioned but I've never caught the details.

twitter.com/lilycollings/status/996869499558211584

Funny thread, an angry guy Wigwamjam caves in seconds when his mate points out MB is a man.

I think 'except for relationship purposes' is one of my fave tweets ever!

I second that nomination! Honourable mention for Ralf Little.

I'm just watching What makes a woman?

When she goes to the fashion show, she talks like this is the first generation to have non gender confirming people. There was nothing at that fashion show that hasn't already been done by generations and generations before.

She also contradicts herself. She says she is a woman and has always been 'on the inside' . But then said she looks to models for how to be a woman. If she is a woman she doesn't need to learn how to be one surely.

Finally why does she speak with an American accent when she is from Essex.

Ahh, the famous "except for relationship purposes". It's still my nomination for the left dude-bro tweet of 2018:

twitter.com/greenrd/status/951948874331099137

I mix a lot with cyclists and many of them shave their legs. I don't usually bother as my leg hair is pale and scanty and I'm lazy but my husband has taken up shaving again and says he likes the feel of his legs smooth although I prefer them hairy especially when they're prickly. Some gay men are in to shaving/ waxing although more torso than legs according to my last beautician (eyelash dying I don't like the pain of waxing).

I think even the lefty dude-bros know this deep down.y

Of course they do, which is why if pressed they will admit that they see transwomen as women apart from for relationship purposes.

Can anyone unpack this for me? How is feeling the need / desire to shave your legs a sign of being uncomfortable in your male body? Women's legs aren't naturally hairless, and women can have plenty of conspicuous leg hair.

Damned if I know. I could knit a sweater with my leg hair, does that mean I'm uncomfortable with my female body FFS. It's such blatant misogynistic claptrap. Men conforming to the male fantasy of a perfect woman, i.e no body hair, big boobed and long flowing locks.

I've been thinking about this more today - and I thought the contrast between Venice and Munroe was stark.

You've got Munroe - moulding herself, primping and preening to a completely man-made vision of 'femininity,' with loads of makeup, long hair, false nails, cosmetic surgery - and posing naked-ish in Playboy. Made a career out of 'becoming a woman' and telling us all what a woman means.

Then you've got Venice - who is quite simply, unmistakably, a woman. A female. Right down to her chromosomes. Cute, feminine, womanly - she just is.

I think the majority view would be "Pauline's" - when India W shouts at other women "I am a real woman" - women say "oh yes, yes of course" but in the back of their mind they're thinking "but you're not, though, are you. Not really. "

I think even the lefty dude-bros know this deep down. I think even the people who tweet "Transwomen are women" over and over, know this. Otherwise they wouldn't need to chant it. It would just be a fact, a given. As it is a given that Venice is a woman.

It's interesting, several of MB's recent tweets are really suggestive of autogynephilia but that tends to be a hetero male thing and MB talks about being attracted to men in their programme.

I don't think the reasons and how TIM present fall neatly into distinct groups. I'm not saying this applies to MB, but if a man is homophobic yet attracted to men, they are likely to present in a overtly feminine way to attract straight men. So they are not turning themselves into their own sexual fantasy, but the sexual fantasy of a stereotypical straight man.

It's interesting, several of MB's recent tweets are really suggestive of autogynephilia but that tends to be a hetero male thing and MB talks about being attracted to men in their programme. Miranda Yardley does talk about that a bit here: mirandayardley.com/en/what-autogynephilia-is-and-what-is-it-not-a-brief-note/

Me too, Picasso. I gave up shaving in winter years ago. I don't really like the look of them bare and hairy if I'm wearing shorts or skirts in summer, but fully accept that's down to years of social conditioning.

I still don' t get the idea that hating one's leg hair can be seen as symptomatic of gender dysphoria in a man, when it's a type of body hair that both sexes have. I don't think it makes any sense in those terms, especially in individuals who opt to keep their penises (when they clearly can afford and are prepared to have other extensive surgery).

I suppose it just reflects (some) male attitudes to the female body. If people like IW and MB retain narrow, stereotypical male imposed images of womanhood then they want to ensure that their bodies conform to this. But then why would MB be happy to keep a penis? Isn't that a constant reminder of the maleness they found distressing and need to escape from?

It all seems so self-contradictory. If there's this mysterious thing called gender identity that's in our brains, as the trans movement seems to believe, and that means you can be a woman even if you have recognizably male genitalia - then why the hell would a bit of leg hair cause you distress?

Haven't shaved in years :D

Mind you I seem to have far less and thinner leg hair than I used to.

MB towards the end said, "things are changing, we are becoming browner and queerer."

I honestly think MB believes this was all invented when MB was born.

Messiah complex.

I've got a lovely pair of hairy legs at the moment, I really like them at this time of year, bushy as hell after no shaving all winter.

I will probably cave and shave, to avoid scaring the men.