Jordan Peterson

Oh and I also have another question:

How many people here believe that gender/gender roles are learnt and imprinted on the baby/child by society eg with strong enough levels of nurture you could successfully raise a boy as a girl and vice versa?

I admire you for continuing ReluctantCamper. Personally I see no point in continuing to address them, their arguments have all been refuted numerous times, they also keep switching when called out, by saying they have been misrepresented etc., projecting onto the women here what they themselves do ad nauseam. There comes a point where there is not much left, except to leave them to their fantasies that they right and everyone else is wrong.

That New York Times article shows that Harvard is biased against Asian Americans, how is that proving your point?

"No social or cultural reasons why Asian Americans might excel in computing or be driven to be so successful?"

Before going down that route how about we conclude the point that if white privilege is such an "I WIN" card then why are Asian Americans earning more than whites?

Ok anecdote not data ...I worked on a very socialist kibbutz in the mid seventies where everything was shared in as equal way possible and the expectation was that all would work equally across all fields and activities . The women and men shared child care in communal creches and nurseries , the women were armed (seeing ultra fit and toned women in bikinis with a machine gun over their shoulder frazzled my teenage boy brain) and were expected to use their weapons if attacked .
So in this place of voluntary and expected equality (this was a very non observant settlement so limited role strictures - but socialisation could be an influence) there were still jobs that women wanted to do and men wanted to do ..women vied to get jobs in the creches, in the dairy unit with calves and in the care /nursing home . The men pretty much did the labouring , farming and tech stuff though everyone pitched in at harvest . There were plenty of physically strong women there who could outwork many men , but their choice was to work in certain areas preferentially .

""Jordan Peterson uses his privilege as a white middle class Male....Imagine his exact words are being said by a black woman""

On this topic again - arguably his words being said by a black woman would actually be more effective - because then nobody could shout "white male privilege" at him.

Of course then the Left would just cry "Uncle Tom" but what can you do about such racism

Like I said earlier when people assume I'm a man. Using someones race/gender to discredit them is racist/sexist

Why do you think that is fms? No social or cultural reasons why Asian Americans might excel in computing or be driven to be so successful?

You seem to think I believe that socialisation is all about white men but I don’t for a second think thtba white man is always going to come out topenin every situation ever.

You can be oppressed on one axis of privilege and privileged on another.

I’m a white working class woman, I taken more seriously because of that in some ways and less in others.
I also acknowledge that there are certain situations where my voice is louder than a mans because I’m a woman.
I am also me and I have a personality and successes and failures that belong completely to me.

"Under what criteria? Are they the most respected academics? "

There's a lawsuit currently underway that alleges: "Harvard systematically and unconstitutionally discriminates against Asian-American applicants by penalizing their high achievement as a group, while giving preferences to other racial and ethnic minorities"

www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/us/harvard-asian-admission.html

Also, Asians inside Google are grouped with whites as a "majority" group

"It’s no secret that Asian-Americans are disproportionately stars in American schools, and even in American society as a whole. Census data show that Americans of Asian heritage earn more than other groups, including whites. Asian-Americans also have higher educational attainment than any other group." www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/opinion/sunday/the-asian-advantage.html

I would probably wager that too, but it would just be a wager.
Probably not best designing the world and claiming absolute truth around wagers. We should probably work towards creating that world without stigmas before deciding what the outcome is going to be.

"Yeah class exists, I’m well aware of that."

White man suceeds = race privilege

White boys don't suceed = class privilege.

I actually agree that class privilege is a far more accurate label than race/gender based privilege

If I were going to pick someone as having great insight into how life should be lived, at the moment I'd be looking into Mr Dodd for the role.

I'd also like to thank 2rebecca for signposting the radio 3 podcast. fascinating listening. and my word Phillip Dodd is weapons grade smart. I would not like to go up against that man.

Asian Americans are the best performing ethnic group in the USA.

Under what criteria? Are they the most respected academics?

White working class boys are the least likely to go to University in the UK.

Yeah class exists, I’m well aware of that.

Yes I think there probably would be, but we don’t know which ones or by how much.

I would wager they would be careers favouring physical strength, aggression and that don't penalize longer separation from children.

And I don't believe the last one is purely down to social stigma.

Well yes, if you took all socialisation away the only reason for anything would be nature, because there’d be no socialisation

I’ve never said that nature doesn’t have an influence. My point is we don’t know how much.

I'm intruiged as to which of my statements about Peterson are unfounded oldman. They generally take a quote of the good doctor's as their basis. Care to elaborate on that statement?

"Yes I think there probably would be"

Ok, so the cause in a social stigma/nurture proof world must be nature then.

It's only taken 7 pages and 680 messages to find an agreement

@oldmanoftheweb "Artemis or such will make a unfounded attack on Dr. Peterson"

You forgot Artemis implying I hate women.

"No but you can study it in blind tests"

Just going round in circles now:

Asian Americans are the best performing ethnic group in the USA.

White working class boys are the least likely to go to University in the UK.

The question (again) is would there still be professions that are male dominated eg 50%+ in a social stigma/barrier less world

Yes I think there probably would be, but we don’t know which ones or by how much.

you can't measure white privilege or prove it exists.

No but you can study it in blind tests. There have been lots of studies where they have sent off identical papers to the same institutions but with different names on it to see what the feedback is and time and time again it’s shown if you have a white male sounding name you get the best feedback.

I feel there's a recurrent cycle here. Camper or Artemis or such will make a unfounded attack on Dr. Peterson. fms will refute it and then Teacup will latch onto the refutation and give a more rationalised response.

Artemis says something stupid -> fms refutes -> Teacup finds a scenario in which fms's rebuttal would be wrong.

It's like being tag-teamed.

"Well it could also be argued that the reason why more more men are in the army is because it’s a very dangerous job that requires long periods of time away from the home and women are needed to care for the children. If we lived in a completely equal society it could be the case that the duties of childcare were spread evenly between the sexes and therefore more women WOULD join the army. "

.....................Start at "very dangerous job"

add "that requires learning how to kill people and willing to be killed"

Then add "long hours away from home"

"therefore more women WOULD join the army."

Yes, it's possible, but would there still be more men in the army - that's the question. Not would more women join the army.

The scenario is eliminating all social stigma, conditions and barriers...therefore it can be assumed that more women will do masculine jobs because of no social stigma.

The question (again) is would there still be professions that are male dominated eg 50%+ in a social stigma/barrier less world

Also it’s the risk factor, one man can impregnate lots of women but a woman can only have one child.
It just makes sense to send the men to war because men are less useful for keeping a nation going. A woman is a more important resource to a nation than a two men and one woman can have one baby at a time, two women and one men can have two.

That’s just practicality, nothing to do with character differences between the sexes.

Well it could also be argued that the reason why more more men are in the army is because it’s a very dangerous job that requires long periods of time away from the home and women are needed to care for the children. If we lived in a completely equal society it could be the case that the duties of childcare were spread evenly between the sexes and therefore more women WOULD join the army.

Valid points. But the evidence, imo, still leads to seeing more men in the army than women. And childcare in the early years has a biological basis. Even today.

It’s all very well and good to say that you welcome the removal of the existing barriers, but if you don’t believe those barriers actually exist then it’s a pretty empty statement.

He does believe they exist. He said so in the Cathy Newman interview as one instance. He believes they are now only a small factor in the career discrepancies we see in most Western countries, however. And I'd agree with that.