Girl Guides Panel discussion at Speakers house.... woman, male, woman, male, male, male....

How the hell do things that in any other circumstances would be creepy predatory and/or inappropriate suddenly become accepted when trans is stuck in front of it.

This is it exactly

Sorry, I know discussion moved on a bit - but that was in relation to earlier points on Scouts and their segregation of children. And it is from a safeguarding and child protection perspective that it is totally drilled into us all as Leaders.

To the point that, as we had 1 bedroom for Leaders on a hostel trip recently, I was going to camp outdoors (in snow!) rather than force the 4 guys to (I felt it was unfair). Only avoided as the 13 girls all decided to share the larger 10 bed room and left the other 4 bed room empty that they should have used (which had nothing to do with me - they just wanted to all share the excitement and 3 were willing to sleep on the floor! So it was all set up by the time I got there after sorting all the boys who were much more tricky to arrange).

In our Cubs and Scouts, we have 2 mixed Cub packs and always segregate the sleeping (separate rooms in hostels, separate tents on camp) - the only time that might not happen would be if we were using another Scout Den (as we contemplated this year) and ALL Cubs were in the same large space, but we had agreed how to split girls one side, boys the other of the hall and retain separate bathrooms for changing. Even Leaders of the opposite sex must not share accoms (so as the only girl, I always get a room or tent to myself - yay!).

The Scouts have 2 single sex packs, but they do attend some events together. Mixing by day and evening is fine, but all accoms are also segregated - no sharing of tents even though they are large tents with sleeping rooms (for 7 each) at both ends separated by a large living space. If there is a need for an opposite sex person to be there, additional tents (usually the expedition 2-3 man tents) are brought and pitched, or an extra Cub tent (4 man but sleep 6 Cubs) is brought if there are a few of them to accomodate. And again, (only applies in the girls troupe - no women leaders in the boys) Adult Leaders (and/or parents on an event) are also segregated for sleeping - from the children and by gender.

How the hell do things that in any other circumstances would be creepy predatory and/or inappropriate suddenly become accepted when trans is stuck in front of it.

It's not normal ffs

I find the policy hypocritical. It's simply not practical for my DSs to go on residential with me anymore as there is rarely the appropriate space and conditions for them to meet GG criteria on safeguarding. Fair enough. I don't think their female classmates should have to share a room with them in a single sex organisation. But if my DSs said that they felt like they are female, that whole policy goes out of the window

Mixed sex Scouting and DoE where accommodation arrangements are clear to participants and parents are fair play. GG is single sex, meaning XX chromosomes. Identities can be so fluid in youth. To exclude girls because they "feel male" is wrong. Putting too much emphisis on a female gender plays into the type of stereotyping that GG usually seeks to challenge.

This is absolutely being pushed from the top down, by the paid staff at hq, and anyone who questions it are ignored, fobbed off with "equality" legislation, or shut up and told "maybe Guiding is not for you".

People speaking up have been actively targeted for silencing. Topic discussion not allowed online in guide groups (or pretty much any feminist online group bar mumsnet as far as I can tell). Members of a non guide Facebook group set up by those concerned preemptively blocked from other groups. That MP mentioned the letter from parents to the Times as evidence in the hate crime committee (WTF?).

Also why the fuck are Amnesty International in the middle of this? What are they now some outreach branch of Stonewall?

Amnesty's LGBT+ twitter is almost perfectly aligned with the messages of Stonewall, the LGBT+ twitter of the political parties. Oh and Pink News, that well known pro-incest rag that every parent trusts to lobby for their child's youth safeguarding policies.

This is not driven from the grass routes of guiding- all the leaders I know take safeguarding very seriously- and there is no push to admit boys of any sort.
There are a few very vocal supporters on the leaders forums, but everyone else is just getting on with running their units, doing fun stuff, camping, badges all the things guides have always done.

This is absolutely being pushed from the top down, by the paid staff at hq, and anyone who questions it are ignored, fobbed off with "equality" legislation, or shut up and told "maybe Guiding is not for you". No discussion is allowed, no consultation has taken place: it's being pushed quietly from above.

Me. Massively so.

Who else is completely creeped out by the thought of a group of adult males sitting round a table talking about how teenage girls should be sharing sleeping accommodation with boys?
Dd won't be joining Guides! Don't want her to be part of all this and I don't trust them an inch to listen to women rather than men on this one.

"We can now see them for their true colours and how they are "unwittingly" providing gateways for predatory behaviour. This is how Savile etc operated - these predators know the gaps and how to operate with relative impunity precisely because they have already tested the safeguarding and found it wanting"

Was thinking exactly this this morning. After all the scandals of the last 20 years, we have organisations like Amnesty lobbying for safeguarding to be removed and parents' rights to know who their daughter is sharing a room with removed? At an event in the HoC?

What the fuck is going on? And why is noone but GC women concerned? Daily Mail, if ever there was a story that needed your attention, this is it. However, this shit is happening right under their noses while they concern themselves with Megan's dad

Also why the fuck are Amnesty International in the middle of this? What are they now some outreach branch of Stonewall?

Why are grown males campaigning to have male children and teenagers share accomodation with female children and teenagers?

It seems a very important issue for some adult males.

Indeed, I do wonder why more people are not even slightly concerned about this, and wondering why this might possibly be..

It makes my skin crawl to imaging working for Bunce - amazing how his behaviour can be seen as normal

He has made it impossible for any one he works with to speak on this.

It makes my skin crawl to imaging working for Bunce - amazing how his behaviour can be seen as normal

Bunce isn't even "a woman" full time, he's a part time crossdresser. What percentage of the time do you need to "identify" as a woman for in order for your voice to matter more than those of girls or their parents?

We can now see them for their true colours and how they are "unwittingly" providing gateways for predatory behaviour. This is how Savile etc operated - these predators know the gaps and how to operate with relative impunity precisely because they have already tested the safeguarding and found it wanting.

This. Have they got a five second memory?

Claws? Old boys' network, trans version

Simply following the law

i.e. just following orders/It's not my fault

Classic defence of totalitarian regimes i.e. zero critical thinking - because the law does allows for safeguarding exemptions.

What exactly are these organisations getting funding for?

I think the benefit of all this trans debate is it's showing up the unfitness for purpose of many groups that most had considered took safeguarding of children and girls seriously.

We can now see them for their true colours and how they are "unwittingly" providing gateways for predatory behaviour. This is how Savile etc operated - these predators know the gaps and how to operate with relative impunity precisely because they have already tested the safeguarding and found it wanting.

It also sets a precedent for overriding normal safeguarding rules, and it being a crime to question it.

Predators' delight

WTF are they playing at? This goes further than just virtue signalling outsourcing idiocy. Who has their claws into them?

It is the secrecy under which GG want to operate that is the big red flag

Exactly, secrecy and related lack of consent.

It also sets a precedent for overriding normal safeguarding rules, and it being a crime to question it.

Wow. How appalling.

Nic Williams from Fairplay 4 Women
twitter.com/AskNic/status/996474522370035712

That's not the same wording as the proposal for the guides. Parents and girls aren't allowed to be aware of mix sexed sleeping arrangements.

Good spot. A very critical difference in approach.