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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Interesting article discussing transgender support by schools in the Guardian

53 replies

Should1stayorshould1go · 15/05/2018 12:31

Interesting article discussing transgender support by schools in the Guardian www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

actually has input from both transactivist and gender critical sides!
and an open comments section not yet censored to ribbons!
in the Guardian!

I shall be on my fainting couch for the rest of the afternoon...

OP posts:
OnTheList · 16/05/2018 10:30

When the NHS do surveys of mixed sex wards in hospitals they overwhelmingly show that people do not want them. So that is where public opinion is with this.

Well quite. This surely shows where public opinion actually is?! And I think this is why transactivists and pressure groups are trying to sneak in desegregation of the sexes via backdoor. As once it happens, it will be very hard to undo

I think aswell that people will have even stronger feelings about allowing teen boys into teen girls changing areas and such. There tends to be a stronger public reaction when children are involved. And men may well be the loudest ones in that, men with young daughters for sure.

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 10:26

I thought Susie Green’s comment comment comparing GC concerns about shared bathroom space with apartheid was offensive. There is not a comparison.

I'm fairly sure the comparison with apartheid was used by others in the recent Transpire campaign. I remember feeling shocked that it was used:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3209839-The-Police-making-policy-for-schools?pg=1
OP comment
"The transgender police officer Gina* Denham, used their own organisation 'Transpire' to launch a public social media campaign against the school until they backed down. I'd call that a conflict of interest. I'd be asking whether their behaviour constituted misconduct in a public office? I'd be looking at why this police force is allowing an officer to mix their personal lifestyle choices with their role in law enforcement? I am asking who is safeguarding the rights of girls to privacy, dignity and safety in that school?"
*correct name

busyboysmum · 16/05/2018 09:52

When the NHS do surveys of mixed sex wards in hospitals they overwhelmingly show that people do not want them. So that is where public opinion is with this.

OnTheList · 16/05/2018 09:42

I thought Susie Green’s comment comment comparing GC concerns about shared bathroom space with apartheid was offensive. There is not a comparison.

I cannot imagine how offensive black people find comments such as this. I am not black and I find them seriously offensive. Its just ill thought out nonsense to try and sway people into thinking that those who wish to retain sex segregation (in areas where it is needed) are bigots. I think that Green and all will be in for a shock once this reaches the general population properly. I cannot imagine the idea of ending sex segregation is very popular with many people at all, male and female alike.

xxyzz · 15/05/2018 20:18

I read this! (And commented.)

So happy to see the Guardian actually talking openly about the Emperor not wearing any clothes without shutting down everyone trying to point this fact out!

And allowing comments and likes too!

I hope this brings home to the Guardian editors that TRAs are a tiny, tiny but incredibly vocal minority, and that the vast bulk of the Guardian's readership can see through their bullying.

It is notable how gender-critical the comments are and the likes show very clearly that there is very, very little support on the left for the TRA position.

Which is nice.

R0wantrees · 15/05/2018 20:16

There's an interesting range of comments under the article. Definitely worth reading.

KataraJean · 15/05/2018 20:09

I thought Susie Green’s comment comment comparing GC concerns about shared bathroom space with apartheid was offensive. There is not a comparison.

Segregation was based on people exactly biologically the same apart from skin colour; it was wrong, and no GC person would suggest otherwiseHmm

Whereas self-ID is about biologically male bodies into female space, so concerns are nothing to do with (wrong) ideas of clean/dirty at all, it is about female space being for female bodied people. No-one is saying trans people are dirty, what a bizarre argument, but that female only spaces have been hard fought for and are needed so that women can use the bathroom in privacy. And trans people may need their own bathroom space, but why not exactly that, their own bathroom space?

It’s embarrassing enough changing a tampon when you know another woman is in the next stall, for goodness sake. Noise of toilet paper, clunk of sanitary bin lid, rustle of tampax packet, clunk of sanitary bin lid, more toilet paper, flush, hopefully not emerge with blood on hands. And that is before we get on to flooding or miscarriage. What is wrong with wanting privacy?

AngryAttackKittens · 15/05/2018 16:25

We need someone to develop headphones that can't be seen if you're not looking super closely for these kinds of occasions. Then you could just nod occasionally to pretend that you were listening.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/05/2018 16:21

Angry ... No, no, no! I'm a completely uninhibited drunk mouthing off wise. I need something more numbing. I keep thinking of the scene with the vogon poetry in hitchikers. But thanks anyway.

Mossandclover · 15/05/2018 16:12

fmsfms those studies/narrative articles do not show that hormones influence anything. As best they may show an association.

AngryAttackKittens · 15/05/2018 15:55

Do you prefer Gin or Wine, Yet?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/05/2018 15:38

Yea Gods and Goddesses. I don't teach in a school but I've soon got to attend gender diversity training. How will I cope any good drugs that will keep me alert but not caring for half a day?

nauticant · 15/05/2018 15:02

The comments are still a playground for the perpetually clueless though. For example, this beauty after commenting about the risks presented by violent men:

The only solution I can see is to view "female only" spaces as a stop gap measure until we can make ALL spaces safe for everyone.

Like many of the comments, men's rights are paramount and women, well, do they actually count as people?

Terfing · 15/05/2018 14:51

I imagine having Shon Faye and Paris Lees in the office would
Peak trans people quite quickly...

busyboysmum · 15/05/2018 14:40

Yes I agree - you can see by the comments that people are not on board at all with the ideology and see it for what it is.

Regressive stereotyping. Let's allow everyone to dress as they please and do what they please but let's not pretend that you can change your biological sex.

MsGameandWatching · 15/05/2018 14:38

I think the Guardian trying to retreat slowly. Someone there has woken up and is thinking "oh f*ck!"

Terfulike · 15/05/2018 14:36

I am so glad I'm not actively teaching at the moment as I would probably get in trouble for not conforming.

R0wantrees · 15/05/2018 14:34

Link to PN article:
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/30/chest-binding-transgender-transitioning/

Gileswithachainsaw · 15/05/2018 14:33

God those teachers are opening themselves up to all sorts by allowing use of male staff toilets.

I feel for those male staff who must be uncomfortable and pretty scared of the implications .

R0wantrees · 15/05/2018 14:33

From OP article:
"Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.”

Article published by Pink News April 30th as part of its 'Explainer' segment:

"Chest binding is an integral part of the transitioning process for lots of trans men – here’s how it works
As you likely already know, chest-binding is a technique used to make breasts appear smaller. Binders are essentially undergarments that bind the boobs to the body.

Usually used by transgender men or non-binary people, binders are very tight and simply create a flatter chest – though they can be extremely uncomfortable and in some cases, very risky.
However, binding is safe if it’s done with care and a bit of research…" (continues)

LittleLebowski · 15/05/2018 14:29

I just made a comment on there that it's bullying to make girls change next to biological boys with penises. It was deleted by moderators
Not surprised; the 'pick' comment is typical Guardian on this, but in all the piece is well-balanced.

busyboysmum · 15/05/2018 14:24

Gosh yes finally some questions are being asked.

Plenty of women commenting there that they would have jumped at the chance to be boys if they had been offered that option as girls struggling with growing up.

Terfulike · 15/05/2018 14:00

I just made a comment on there that it's bullying to make girls change next to biological boys with penises. It was deleted by moderators

niceberg · 15/05/2018 13:46

UpstartCrow I agree, breath of fresh air really.

UpstartCrow · 15/05/2018 13:33

I thought the gender critical side came out of that looking well balanced and informed.
And not bigotted or batshit. Mein Kamph indeed!