Repeal the 8th - have we talked about Ireland's 'abortion war?'

There were 190,406 abortions carried out in England and Wales in 2016 , 696, 271 live births and 3112 still births.

qazxc I don't know about the 97% statistic, but they discussed the 1 in 5 stat on More or Less recently. It's...kind of accurate. But not very precise.

Here's the iPlayer link: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b1tmb2

But I think it went something like this: based on all the pregnancies the NHS know about, 1 in 5 ends in abortion, and the remaining 4 end either in a live baby (most of the time) miscarriage or stillbirth.

Of course it doesn't take into account all the pregnancies which end in miscarriage very early and for which the woman receives no medical treatment, or miscarriages which occur without the woman knowing about it, but it's not completely plucked from thin air.

Really, really hoping there are enough yes voters. This situation is untenable for women and it is so hypocritical when everyones knows that making abortions illegal does not stop abortions from happening.
How many more women need to die, get injured by self aborting or by unsafe abortion methods, get into debt to travel, have to travel alone for an abortion or with support, and have to suffer the indignity of fear and stress around a pregnancy (or just the possibility of a pregnancy) that they don’t want to or can’t carry to term?

Savita

Lots of no groups are against terminations even in cases of rape.
Lots of misinformation on posters about late term abortions and dubious statistics ( 1 in 5 of babies in the UK are aborted, 97% of babies aborted are healthy, ....).
Recently there has been an upsurge in the more religious based posters ( some with mother Theresa, some with photos of infants with though shall not kill, some with images of foetus with I am your grandchild...)

Ah, thanks Anna. IIRC one of the reasons why the UK legalised abortion (in specific circumstances) in 1968 is that increasingly women who had had consensual sex were claiming they had been raped in order to get an abortion.

(Lass - I agree it's an inconsistent approach, but from a PR point of view many people who oppose abortion on demand seem to accept it in cases of rape and incest.)

Irene, the reason the government (on the advice of the Citizen's Assembly) went with the 12 weeks proposal was due to the illegal importation of abortion pills. This is a huge problem and a death due to not receiving proper care will happen. These pills should be prescribed by a Dr and supervised after the woman has had a full check up for hypertension etc. There was no way to get around this unless they gave it full access until 12 weeks. Also, there is no way to "prove" rape - as we witnessed in the recent Belfast trial.

However, I too am worried about the ability to get this through. The problem is that there are very many angry women on the repeal side, who have never been involved in a political campaign, and as someone who has campaigned politically for years and years, I can tell you, you never win over an undecided with anger and vitriol. I am saddened by the level of debate on facebook - and I only go on to click support for yes.

Lass the horrible dark haired woman in the red top was Maria Steen from the Iona Institute

It might have been safer to announce plans to legislate for abortion only for rape, incest

I think that would have been worse. You have 2 classes of "innocent babies" - one class can't be murdered and one class can. That is me being devil 's advocate should there be a doubt but that is how No would spin it.

Watching with bated breath as an Irish expat.

Thanks for the links to the podcasts OP. So much of the history of the repression of women and their reproductive rights since the incarnation of the Irish state. Some really shocking information in there regarding the medical interventions created to enable women to have as many pregnancies as possible to the detriment of their health and life.

Also, I hadn't realised that the 8th amendment was added as a reaction to the Roe versus Wade case in the US amid fears that Ireland would follow the same path.

^"Abortion has been illegal in Ireland since the foundation of the State. The British 1861 Offences Against Person Act, which imposed a criminal prohibition on abortion which was punishable by penal servitude (later becoming life in prison), became part of the legislature of the Irish Free State in 1922 following independence from Britain. While abortion remained illegal in Ireland, there were dramatic changes to abortion laws in Britain, Europe and the United States. In 1967 the British Parliament passed the Abortion Act, providing for a range of circumstances in which abortions can legally be carried out. Following the legalisation of abortion in Britain the numbers of Irish women travelling to England increased significantly, reaching 3,600 in 1981 – the same year that the Irish anti-abortion lobby group, the Pro-Life Amendment Campaign (P.L.A.C.) was launched.

In 1973 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the famous Roe v. Wade case that women had the right to abortion under the U.S. Constitution. The decision built on earlier case law around privacy and contraception. The same year that Roe was decided in the US, the Irish Supreme Court had held in McGee v. Attorney General that a right to marital privacy was implicit in the Constitution, and therefore that married couples were permitted to import contraceptives for their own use. Both these cases led to fears among the conservative right in Ireland that abortion could be eventually become legal in Ireland too and by the began to campaign for a constitutional referendum to reinforce the ban on abortion.

The anti-abortion campaign, P.L.A.C., with the help of the Catholic Church, launched a successful campaign convincing the Fine Gael-Labour government of the time to hold a referendum on abortion, despite many politicians at the time expressing anxiety with the wording that P.L.A.C. wished to insert into the Constitution.

The campaign was bitter and divisive but the eighth amendment was passed by a majority of two-to- one (67% to 33%, on a 53% turnout of the electorate). As Professor of Law, Senator Ivana Bacik has written, the eighth amendment “is uniquely misogynistic, in that it expressly sets up the right to life of both the pregnant woman and the foetus that she carries in conflict – anticipating that a time would come when somebody would have to decide between them.”^

I wonder - and I say this reluctantly as I'm in favour of abortion on demand - if the government have made a mistake by saying that if the 8th is repealed they will introduce legislation to allow abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.

It might have been safer to announce plans to legislate for abortion only for rape, incest and when the woman's mental or physical health is at risk - surely the vast majority of the population would support this. Then consider legislating for abortion on demand a bit further down the line.

Possibly there will be a "silent Tory" factor amongst yes voters- where one side is very vociferous and the other keeps quiet.

Although I was very surprised on the Clare Byrne programme that of 6 doctors in the audience who spoke (2 men and 4 women ) 3 of the women and 1 man were against it. The male GP who supported abortion did say he was part of a group of gps in favour.

I live in Ireland ( unfortunately can't vote in the referendum as I'm a French national). It unfortunately isn't looking hopeful.
Lots of misinformation from the no side, and posters all other the place.
Reading comments on Facebook, it's not only the older generation that will be voting no.
People with ridiculous reasons for voting no (lets stick it to the government).

Cwenthyrtyh - I suppose the pro-lifer argument would be that the state shouldn't sanction abortion. For instance - violent assault still happens in countries where it's illegal, but that's not an argument for making violent assault legal. Plus I imagine there would be more abortions if Ireland legalised termination, as not everyone is currently able to go to the UK or buy abortion pills online.

Slightly worried by this thread as I'd hoped repeal would be a given.

What I don’t understand, in places where abortion is illegal, is - abortion still happens. Not providing safe accessible abortions to your citizens doesn’t mean all women carry their pregnancies to term. Ireland just exports their abortions, or women turn to drastic measures themselves, or use drugs purchased online etc. So not having safe accessible abortion available just puts women’s lives at risk, it doesn’t stop abortion.

ludog, part of me wonders why men get to vote on something that affects women! It is peak patriarchy for me

You are making the assumption a majority of women would vote in favour of abortion. That may well be a mistake. Opinion polls in the UK for example consistently show considerably higher support by women for restricting abortion than by men.

I watched the first and last ten minutes of Irish tv debate. I certainly would not pin my hopes on it being women who will swing it to yes.

I thought Mary Lou McDonald spoke well as did the doctor (Peter something) Who was the horrible dark haired woman in the red top?

I really hope it passes. I’m originally from Dublin. A lot of my friends and family on FB are def yeses. In fact my male gay godson is actively campaigning for yes - very proud of him.

I have donated to an Irish pro-choice campaign group, I forget the name now. Other than that I don’t have much to say I guess, I’d expect to most posters on FWR it’s a no-brainier that we support the repeal campaign, but at least for me personally, I have no Irish connection, and no idea what else I could do.

There's a long running thread in AIBU about the Repeal campaign and there's quite a few Irish posters on there discussing the issues.

Yes, it was bad. No-one came across very well apart from Mary Lou and I'm not usually a fan of hers. There was no debate at all, just shouting.

Anyone watch Claire Byrne Live last night? What a shit show.

I'm quite worried about the referendum. I've had a lot of conversations and the picture of who will be voting which way is much more complex than it's portrayed. Sure, "no" voters are more likely to be older, rural, more conservative etc but you'd be surprised how many well- off, well-educated people in the leafy areas are walking around with "No" badges the size of dinnerplates. There are many reasons for that but apart from anything I don't see the "Yes" campaign getting through to the undecideds. I'm old enough to remember the 1983 referendum and things have changed so much since then. But Irish people are surprisingly weird and squeamish about abortion even now. And hypocritical, obviously as we go to the UK in our thousands.

Live in Ireland. Lot of people I know (in their thirties) voting no. I am a yes and really hope so. Poster literally 'you were not aborted ..were you ?' outside our home.

People are very anti abortion here.

@MoltenLasagne that's bonkers! If they were asked "Cake or death?" would they vote for death on the basis that they'd rather have some first course too?

Thanks OP for posting