Gender pay gap

All of that is very interesting, but it does not address any of the "why", it is describing what happens at Uber but not why women are making different choices to men. Just that they are, and that this results in a pay gap. Which is surely something we already know at a general level, so I'm not sure why it's being treated as some massively exciting new information.

@AssassinatedBeauty

You could start with the documentary linked above

As for Uber:

"Men are much more likely to drive the graveyard overnight shift, which could have more people coming home from bars or whatnot. But women are actually dramatically more likely to drive the Sunday afternoon shift, and that is also a very lucrative driving time. So it’s not so much that there aren’t differences about when men and women drive. It just doesn’t seem to be super-related to driving a pay gap, because they’re both driving at lucrative times, they’re just different times. "

"look at the attrition rates, it is true that women do fall off the platform more. But they’re also earning less. So it’s not clear whether it’s because of preferences for not liking to drive as much as men like to drive, or if it’s simply an earnings effect. "

How about you either listen to the podcast or read the transcript instead of injecting more "but patriarchy!" into the results freakonomics.com/podcast/what-can-uber-teach-us-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

Thanks @fmsfms, I'm afraid I missed your linked article on the first page (doh!) and couldn't watch the video at work; but you've given me loads of things there to be getting on with, so thank you for your efforts :)

@RatRolyPoly

"Do either of you have a link to any pertinent studies of the Nordic countries' efforts and their results?"

I've already linked to one article which details the gender gaps in personality/career choices quillette.com/2017/07/15/time-stop-worrying-first-world-gender-gaps/

And linked a documentary which explores both sides of the argument:

And here's some actual studies

"evidence suggests gender differences in most aspects of personality....are conspicuously larger in cultures with more egalitarian gender roles, gender socialization and sociopolitical gender equity.... Social role theory appears inadequate for explaining some of the observed cultural variations in men’s
and women’s personalities." onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ijop.12265

"Overall, higher levels of human developmentincluding long and healthy life, equal access to knowledge and education, and economic wealthwere the main nation-level predictors of larger sex differences in personality" www.researchgate.net/publication/24001221_Why_Can%27t_a_Man_Be_More_Like_a_Woman_Sex_Differences_in_Big_Five_Personality_Traits_Across_55_Cultures_vol_94_pg_168_2008 [accessed May 14 2018].

As for the Nordic paradox, I would be fascinated to find out more about this phenomenon. Certainly I'd like to know more than just the assumption that more equality in society seems to demonstrate that women naturally and inevitably choose low paid, low status, nurturing and people focused jobs. That it's just simply allowing women to show their natural tendencies to be caring and poor, case closed.

Why do women quit more than men, and I wonder why women don't take on the more lucrative shifts? Hmm, let me see if I can figure that conundrum out...

Female Uber drivers earn 7% less than Male, even though the fares are set by the app.

Must be the Patriarchal social conditioning right??!

Wrong

Women are more likely to quit driving for Uber than Men. More experienced drivers earn more and are more likely to be men.

Men drive faster than women, and thus earn more

Men work different shifts than women, are more likely to work lucrative shifts

fortune.com/2018/02/06/uber-gender-pay-gap-study/

Oh but I guess it's that social conditioning that encourages men to drive faster.

Or it's testosterone that makes men more likely to take risks e.g drive faster.

Oh but Cordelia Fine says that the influence of testosterone on behaviour is a myth!

@Flytipper

"More equal/free/liberal Countries = more freedom for women to pursue the prescribed norms for their sex their own interests.

Less free/equal Countries then the only way for women to progress is by pursuing professions that increase their earning potential thus giving them reason to work against gender stereotypes"

We agree RE less equal Countries but you are completely and utterly missing the point re more equal Countries, to the extent that I think you are wilfully misinterpreting it or too ideologically entrenched to consider any alternative.

I'll say it again, slowly this time so it sinks in.

Nordic Countries = high in equality, high in encouraging women into STEM and actively trying to reduce the gender gap. = BIGGER GENDER GAPS

Your logic is backwards - the Nordic Countries are actively trying to reduce the social stigma and the "nurture" element, therefore you think that means the "prescribed norms" are greater, hilarious

"STEM careers are generally secure and well-paid but the risks of not following such a path can vary. In more affluent counties, where any choice of career feels relatively safe, women may feel able to make choices based on non-economic factors." www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/

"I think you underestimate the degree to which social conditioning affects every aspect of women's lives in our so-called 'free' continent."

Yes, that's why in my very first post in this thread I said "Of course it's not so black and white to say these differences are either 100% nature or 100% nurture, neither should be disregarded."

However, the article I linked to earlier (which you clearly haven't read) says:

"Some may argue that patriarchal social factors encourage women into stereotypically feminine fields (childcare, nursing etc.), and discourage them from pursuing STEM related careers. However, if one were to make the case that societal factors determine choices made by men and women, you would expect that in more egalitarian countries, the sexes would make similar career choices, and thus, gender gaps would recede. However, studying sex differences across 55 different cultures, Schmitt, Realo, Voracek, & Allik, came to the opposite conclusion (emphasis added):

With improved national wealth and equality of the sexes, it seems differences between men and women in personality traits do not diminish. On the contrary, the differences become conspicuously larger."

"I suggest you get clued up by reading Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender."

Here's an idea, how about you quote the relevant section to demonstrate you've read it and understood it?

And also this article contesting her claims quillette.com/2017/03/21/cordelia-fines-testosterone-rex-a-review/

"“The gender gap in pay would be considerably reduced and might vanish altogether if firms did not have an incentive to disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours,” she wrote in a paper published this month in The American Economic Review."

FlyTipper, are you Dr. Goldin??

Haha, massive almost identical x-post

men on average pay much more into the system and comparatively take less out of it as well

Now do you suppose that having babies might have something to do with that? Is there a tiny chance that if all the women stopped popping them out that might be a teensy bit to the detriment of men?

The weight of producing the next generation of tax payers should be borne by men and women, because it is both beneficial to and desired by both. And yet only one has the power to do it. And that shouldn't come to their great financial detriment alone.

The argument that women are the only losers in this equation is fallacious. If society is set up for the exclusive benefit of men then it’s doing a shit job it!

Well for my own part I specifically said the current situation is bad for women and men. I mean I said it explicitly.

But you have to understand, this is the patriarchy we're talking about here. It's a system that was built by a certain kind of man and it benefits a certain kind of masculinity. Women, deviating as far as we do from that masculine ideal, are hugely oppressed under the patriarchy. But men who seek to deviate from it suffer too.

Both men and women suffer under the patriarchy.

That's why you should help us bring it down.

Oh I can also take the obvious rebuttal that are lot of men’s choices are subsidized by the often unpaid labour undertaken on our behalf’s by the women in our live. I would accept that as true too.

Don’t forget the gender tax gap, men on average pay much more into the system and comparatively take less out of it as well. The choices women do have are often subsidized by men.

We can have a conversation on what we’re all socialised to do, wether it’s to go out and be wage slaves for the majority of our working lives or chained to the proverbial kitchen sink. Neither outcome is particularly great if it’s forced on you.

The difference between men and women is that the pressures placed upon men is enforced at the point of a gun. The pressures women face are societal in nature.

The argument that women are the only losers in this equation is fallacious. If society is set up for the exclusive benefit of men then it’s doing a shit job it!

I have seen on here the position than I shouldn’t question the “lived experience” of any woman, and you know what? Fine I can do that, but then it also stands to reason no woman can question my “lived experience” as a man. This also therefore leaves us in the position of forever being unable to actually define who actually has it worse.

Again I agree with you FlyTipper.

I don't think I've ever agreed with someone so much on the Feminist board!

Do either of you have a link to any pertinent studies of the Nordic countries' efforts and their results?

It's interesting that the Nordic paradox is used as incontrovertible evidence that women want to and choose to do low paid low status "nurturing" people focussed jobs. As if the measures taken by Nordic countries have definitely counteracted hundreds and hundreds of years of social control of women.

@Flytipper

"the pay gap - whatever the cause - starts before 50"

I never said it didn't start before 50.

"there are many ways of measuring the pay gap - lifetime earning being just one."

What? This doesn't make any sense. Surely the only earning comparison that matters is average earnings over an entire career - anything else is just cherrypicking

"The Nordic evidence, oft-quoted by the camp who believe a pay gap exits for entirely benevolent reasons, does not necessarily reveal gender preferences. For many feminists, the reason for persistent or even ever widening differences between the sexes is entrenched sexism. It is so entrenched, we apparently don't even notice it. European women are free to pursue whatever society deems it right for women to pursue i.e. caring for others. In the developing world, where needs must, women turn their hands to anything that will feed the family, be that hard labour, computer programming or farming."

Oh dear, you've misunderstood that argument entirely I'm afraid.

a) The Nordic Countries have tried harder than anywhere else in the world to reduce the gender gap in certain professions eg encouraging more women into STEM and reducing social stigma around professions. BUT THE GAP GOT BIGGER

"European women are free to pursue whatever society deems it right for women to pursue i.e. caring for others."

"In the developing world, where needs must, women turn their hands to anything that will feed the family, be that hard labour, computer programming or farming.""

You're contradicting yourself or you don't realise that these quotes don't mean what you think they mean.

More equal/free/liberal Countries = more freedom for women to pursue their own interests.

Less free/equal Countries then the only way for women to progress is by pursuing professions that increase their earning potential

My company claims to have equal pay since having been required to publish the gender pay gap figures but a lot of women received a significant off-cycle pay rise in March 2017 to make the figures match the statement. So yes, I believe in the gender pay gap and I believe that a lot of women haven't received equal pay for equal work either.

I'd also point out that historically the state retirement age for women has been younger than men. Whilst this is planned to be equalised it won’t be for another couple of years. There was also a recent article that said more women are working past 50 than ever before, but the number is still less than men.

So if women stop working at a younger age than men, then of course men on average are going to earn more than women.

That’s a non-patriarchy/discrimination explanation for the earnings gap (earnings gap is a far more accurate description)

I think that a significant reason for the pay gap is fewer women doing STEM subjects at school/uni, and these are associated with higher pay.

So for example over 80% of nursing / midwifery students are female, whereas over 80% of computer science / engineering students are male.

So you could say that it is a result of the choices that girls make, but there is a strong argument that girls are expected / encouraged to do certain subjects.

We need to tackle this in the teenage years!

"The world divides into two: those who believe a gender pay gap exists, and those who don't."

There are actually several camps.

A) Those who incorrectly believe that women are paid less than men for the same work (probably due to poor reporting on the issue by the media)

B) Those who are aware that women on average earn less than men over the course of their careers/lifetimes, and believe this is because of patriarchy/discrimination.

C) Those who are aware that women on average earn less than men over the course of their careers/lifetimes, and believe this is because men and women are different and make different choices.

You can then divide Camp C) between those who believe male/female differences are because of nature vs nurture.

Of course it's not so black and white to say these differences are either 100% nature or 100% nurture, neither should be disregarded.

The nature evidence suggests women are more interested in people, men are more interested in things. Hence why more women do nursing, teaching, caring professions.

There is also plenty of evidence that suggests that the personality differences between the sexes and the gender gap in professions GETS BIGGER as a society becomes more equal

"In other words, in prosperous and egalitarian countries, people are free to pursue their respective career interests. Since men and women are innately different, they pursue different vocations based on dissimilar interests. Therefore, equal representation is an inaccurate measure of gender egalitarianism, simply because in egalitarian countries, gender gaps are the most robust."

quillette.com/2017/07/15/time-stop-worrying-first-world-gender-gaps/

This was also reflected in the Nordic Countries, those that are recognised as pursuing gender equality more than anywhere else in the world - their gender gaps only got bigger.

This Norwegian documentary on the Nordic Gender Equality Paradox is excellent, as is the entire series. Each episode discusses a different aspect of nature vs nurture and speaks to both gender/social scientists as well as traditional sciences