Muslim rights vs Transgender rights

I raised this issue on Twitter and was told I should stay home

LM of the Labour party said that if muslim women can't share with transwomen they should create their own seperate spaces.

I was talking to my beautician about this. She is trained to do 'intimate waxing' on female bodies but the salon does not have any male treatments available. She said it is a different training needed and a totally different service provision that they do not want to train for. She is so anxious about being sued that they are not stopping doing female waxing - which seems absurd.

raised this issue on Twitter and was told I should stay home.

How woke.

Personally I am also uncomfortable with the idea that I would have to use my faith as an excuse to defend my need for single-sex spaces. All women should be entitled to privacy and dignity if needed.

This.

As a Muslim woman I am very worried and I am thankful to you all for thinking about women of faith who cannot share spaces with males . I am not sure what you mean by the definition of "woman" is flexible. There is some tolerance with regards to "eunuchs" and feminine men but it doesn't make them women. The Iranian position is not shared by the majority of Muslims in the UK who are Sunni. There is very little awareness of these issues in the Muslim community and yes, it might lead to further marginalisation of vulnerable women. I raised this issue on Twitter and was told I should stay home . Personally I am also uncomfortable with the idea that I would have to use my faith as an excuse to defend my need for single-sex spaces. All women should be entitled to privacy and dignity if needed.

This is something I do worry about, and a point I made when I wrote to my MP. I am not a Muslim woman, however I live in a city well known for its multiculturalism, and many issues that have been associated with that. There is already a cultural divide in this city, and yes, some people are working hard to overcome that. But not all.

A hot topic is the marginalisation of Muslim women, as a PP said, the legality of marriages, but even recently in the news here, honor killings, forced marriages, the isolation of women. It concerns me, that if Muslim women feel unable to access women only spaces for support then this further isolates then. And if the only women only spaces they can access are also Muslim only spaces, does this help break down barriers? And I don’t think the tranwomen are women trope helps here, because while that may be widely accepted, if it isn’t accepted by the women needing those spaces they simply won’t access the support those spaces provide.

I know that might be a bit garbled, and I hope I’m not speaking g on behalf of Muslim women, and I know this wouldn’t apply to all Muslim women, but it is based on my experience of living here.

I don’t post here very often, but am a committed GC lurker, and happy to try and learn & engage more.

It’s not clear whether she would have been able to refuse service to a man.

This is kind of where the Islamic desire to 'trans away the gay' and the imperative that 'Muslim women don't mix with unrelated males' collide.

Iran used to have one of the highest trans populations, mainly because there was a death sentence 'incentive system' for being gay. I suspect though, given trans 'incentive', it probably included castration etc, and perhaps this was deemed less of a threat to Muslim women and their spaces?

And of course Jewish women have a lot of their own female-only things as well.

Olennas: The intersection between religious conservatism and transactivism makes me very uncomfortable TBH

Well yes it is. But currently men on the Left are the prime movers in this trans thing, and it has been primarily conservative women that have joined us in being allies.

Btw I think Olenna raises an important point about being very uncomfortable as a feminist ‘defending’ patriarchal/sexually discriminating religious practices and indeed basically using them to counter trans ideology. There’s a fine line to tread here and I think it’s important to take the lead from Muslim women/’s groups and Islamic feminism.

I was just signing up to an event on Eventbrite and browsing others, came across this happening today

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/raise-your-gays-gender-variance-sexuality-diversity-in-islam-raiseyourgaze-tickets-44671929945?aff=eiosprexshreclip&ref=eiosprexshreclip

Sadly I’m working today or I’d really love to have gone and learned and listened to inform myself and understand this intersection better. But clearly, some people are talking about this.

I then typed “feminism + Islam” into the search box and found this event as well

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/guarded-encounters-representing-gender-and-islam-across-cultures-tickets-43748073666?aff=eiosprexshreclip&ref=eiosprexshreclip

I might have a bit of a google later looking at the speakers at these events and their work etc.

There have been a number of cases where transgender identified males try to force women to participate in their fetishes under threat of a lawsuit if they refuse.
It seems that Canada is doomed to repeat the Vancouver Rape Relief experience over and over until the women submit.

All religions where men and women mingling is discouraged need to be made aware of these dangerous policies.
They will result in Muslim and Jewish women withdrawing from society.

If the case involved a sack and crack it wasn't just a leg wax was it?

I feel like some people deliberately target businesses just to get publicity

There's plenty of places that would be ok with catering for this client upon learning they were trans, why target a Muslim beauty therapist? If they'd just gone to a salon that did both men and women it would be a non issue surely?

What Grasslands said. I would have refused on health and safety grounds.

Each province has its own human rights code and there’s also the federal Human Rights Act, which say there are certain grounds on which a person can’t be discriminated against. Those include:

race;
national or ethnic origin;
colour;
religion;
age;
sex (includes pregnancy);
sexual orientation;
marital status;
family status;
disability;
religion;
conviction for an offence for which they’ve been pardoned or in respect of which a record suspension has been ordered;

...
In 2004, B.C. resident Ralph Stopps was denied membership at a women’s-only gym. It may sounds like discrimination, but the B.C. human hights tribunal rejected his claim. While it found he was clearly denied membership based on his gender, he failed to demonstrate two important things: that his human dignity was adversely affected by the rejection and that he somehow suffered as a result.

The tribunal also concluded his case was basically a political stunt, he fully expected to be rejected, and did it only to make a human rights complaint.

From Findlaw Canada.

I thought beauticians regularly waxed men anyway

Take genitals out of it and the principle is the same, nobody should be forced to have physical contact with someone they don't want to.

I don’t agree I think the genitals are pretty crucial to this being ok. It wouldn’t be ok to refuse to serve black women for example.

Contact these.... www.mwnuk.co.ukm/

Duchyduke can you link any articles to support the statement most Muslim's idea of what is a woman is flexible.
I don't think most Muslim people are even aware of labour parties policy on transgender and self ID. I bet they will lose votes when they finally do.
This is similar to court case involving Northern Ireland couple and the gay wedding cake. Which human right is more important religious or gay rights.
Just had a horrible thought what if your a rape victim who requests only female doctor to examine you otherwise you won't report the crime. And they bring along a person calling themselves female but is quite obviously man in a dress. Whose rights are more important then.
I hope the woman won't feel like she's pressured into agreeing into examination because she doesn't want to be called transphobic

Not for being gay, the Transgender person was quite possibly straight.

Do you mean straight as in liking women, or straight as in liking men?

There IS no gay or straight in a trans world. Why LG&B align themselves with T is beyond me.

It isn’t widely discussed in the Muslim female community. Current discussions are mainly how do we stop/ recognise radicalisation, making sure your marriage is legal (not just nikkah) and you know your legal rights in a divorce . However it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t raise it.
Like someone else said they will need to see what is defined as a woman in the Quran

I don’t know where you live but in Manchester there is the British Muslim Heritage centre which welcomes debate and discussion. Write to them ?

The intersection between religious conservatism and transactivism makes me very uncomfortable TBH

I understand the point about needing to understand how things like bathroom policies impact on all women, including those with a faith that precludes them sharing spaces with men without a chaperone, or the need to adjust clothing without doing so in front of a man

BUT

I don't want to use conservative patriarchal strictures in order to fight against TRA ideology, because I think it's appalling that a woman could be spurned by her family for having physical contact with a non-family male in a professional context. I oppose the hijab and the niqab, so it would be hypocritical of me to use them as a reason to object to unisex toilets where women might want to adjust their attire in a single sex environment

In relation to mosques, I suspect it's very simple in that they will simply ignore any TRAs that attempt to enter the wrong sex segregated space, and not particularly care about whether they have a GRC or not.

I do, however, really worry about the impact on girls from conservative backgrounds of young transwomen wanting to access single sex spaces in schools. Girls will be withdrawn from school to avoid mingling, particularly in changing rooms. We should, however, be fighting this on two fronts: one is keeping men and boys out of women and girls' spaces; the other is ending oppressive and sexist attitudes that tie women and girls to the home

I’m not saying as non-Muslims we shouldn’t speak up for Muslim women btw (far from it, in fact, can everyone head over to this thread and do just that please www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3245436-URGENT-PLEASE-SIGN-PETITION-young-woman-forced-marriage-and-rape-victim-facing-death-sentence )

But we (non-Muslim feminists) shouldn’t be speaking over Muslim women, we should be asking what do they want and how can we support that, and I honestly don’t know what Muslim women want on this at the moment. If it is even a widely discussed or acknowledged issue for the Muslim community in the UK.