Muslim rights vs Transgender rights

I don't think DuchyDuke speaks the truth.

Pakistan is very pro trans, but fundamentally it sees transwomen as men.

So does Saudi Arabia.

tribune.com.pk/story/1637945/1-first-pakistan-send-trans-persons-hajj-volunteers/

Indonesian Wikipedia explains the position

<a class="break-all" href="https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=id&u=id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waria&prev=search" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=id&u=id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waria&prev=search

"Waria [Indonesian word for transgender, meaning 'ladyboy'] are men who play the role of women"

Iran has the death penalty for homosexuality and encourages gay men to have surgery and become transgender, and has claimed to have no gays in the country. The transgender status is a convenient religious fiction to erase homosexuality.

The speaker that I'm thinking of was Aysha Iqbal and she was talking about Odara Women's support network at the Birmingham WPUK meeting. It has (from the website) a "brand new Sanctuary and Wellbeing Centre a safe, relaxing and soothing women-only space that allows you to unwind and meet other like-minded women. Our Centre is the only spa, gym, hammam, pool and hot tub in Birmingham exclusively for women."

It is for women of all faiths & none and so I think that the concerns raised were that some women from particular faiths or cultures could become excluded by a change to status as 'women-only'. I'm sorry that I can't find the talk and don't want to misrepresent what she said. It sounds like a really interesting project.

Link is here: www.odara.org.uk

My hairdresser doesn't take men. She doesn't take boys either. Probably because she's not experienced in cutting males' hair but also because she prefers to cut womens's hair.

Is this a baker shop case too? Are there going to be test cases for everything?

Do you mean Lucy Masoud, the Firefighter?
Wasn't that about sleeping (etc) arrangements in the fire station (not necessarily to do with Muslim women). I am way too lazy to google at the mo!

Regardless of religion, no woman should be forced to perform any act that involves physical contact they are uncomfortable with. The same the other way - no man should either. This is a very basic tenet of individual rights and boundaries. It is not comparable to a service like baking a cake - it’s actual physical contact.

Once again, the act of a woman saying no is seen as an offence. No means no. It’s not an invitation to negotiate. When we are in a situation where a woman saying no to a man results in a lawsuit and a threat to her livlihood, we are heading down a very dark road.

I do think this issue should be publicised more in religious communities - it risks women of faith being completely pushed out of the public sphere.

R0wantrees
Do you mean Lucy Masoud, the Firefighter? I think she spoke of some of the problems.

Just adding girl guides to the list of same sex spaces that Muslim girls may not now be able to access due to male bodied people in sleeping areas.

My dd also shares student halls that are segregated on gender grounds. Of four girls in her apartment, one is Muslim. Halls are allocated on gender.
The whole thing is a disaster. No girl or woman, Muslim or otherwise, should be forced by law to carry out intimate services to, accept intimate services from, or share intimate / sleeping spaces with, male bodied people.

Any employee hired to perform personal services on women's bodies should not be required to perform personal services to men's bodies. I don't care what her religion is, I think this right is universal.

There was , I'm sure, a speaker at WPUK Birmingham who spoke about a group for Muslim women and the implications if it were affected. I've looked on the WPUK website and can't see a video of her speech....

As a Catholic I was raised to be modest and I feel very uncomfortable with the idea of males in female spaces. Surely this is my right? But I agree, we shouldn’t have to use religion. ALL women’s rights to privacy and dignity should count.

Women from more conservative cultures are another reason I feel strongly about this. Many (not all) are oppressed and marginalised as it is. Self ID could force many to have to retreat from any kind of community life and that is simply not acceptable.

I agree as a white woman this is a fine line and I don't want to cross it, I do however want women of those cultures to know they are part of why I am fighting self ID.

India and Pakistan is a bit of both. A lot of places in Indo-Iranian areas don’t discriminate, some do. It just depends where you go.

In Pakistan it looks like a mix of both

I think when Muslim women realise that 80% of transwomen keep fully intact genitalia they will be pretty unhappy with just accepting them

Situations like Iran I think are different. These are gay dudes, and as far as I know, get castrated at least. Forced transsexuals in our terms.

The UK, US, AU etc, completely different - the 'transgenders' are the majority of trans, het dudes, most of whom will not get the chop.

Oh sorry malaguena, I did think that you seemed a bit offended. I assure you, the issue is broader than that. It is 3.5 billion reasons broader.

I get that it may appear that sometimes, bringing up these points for various groups of women can appear superficial. However, generally, it is not possible to raise all the inter-related issues, so a few key points get raised. I lived for many years in the East End, so I get some of the complexities involved.

I know a muslim mum at my kids school, who's eight year old daughter had never been in a swimming pool until they started lessons with the school, because all the local pools have windows to the street and the mum wouldn't go in them, even if it was an all women's swim session and she was wearing a burkini (she was happy for her under 12 year old daughters to go in them, but her husband is a non-swimmer, so had nobody to supervise).

Other muslim women I know (including my SIL's) are less concerned about being in mixed areas, but it would certainly impact some muslim women if all spaces were essentially unisex.

Sorry for the autostraddle link but...
www.autostraddle.com/a-muslim-rupaul-at-the-dawn-of-islam-tuwais-and-the-mukhannathun-198612/

This is the only hadith etc I have come across.

However, there's recently been similar lefty pro-TRA articles in dawn.com as there have been in the Guardian, and now Pakistan has adopted self-ID. There will be some coverage around this I imagine.

I completely agree with you LaSqrrl, I am sorry I didn't express myself clearly with faith being "used as an excuse". I meant any woman should have access to female-only spaces without the need to justify herself by saying I'm Muslim/ Jewish/ a rape survivor.

AFAIK scrotal waxing needs specific training as it is very delicate skin and easily damaged.

I have heard that too, and it makes sense, given it is really loose skin and all. I would imagine, quite a deal of experience needed to offer that service.

But men are not the sharpest crayons in the box. They would rather risk injury than to be told 'no' or listen to common sense. Or, basically, they are going to sue either way.

Katya: It concerns me, that if Muslim women feel unable to access women only spaces for support then this further isolates then.

Indeed, this is a big problem. There is some support for Muslim women, but really limited to major cities.

malaguena: There is some tolerance with regards to "eunuchs" and feminine men but it doesn't make them women.

I half suspected that, to be honest. Seemed like the compromise situation of not tolerating gay men, 'insisting' they trans, then, what?

There is very little awareness of these issues in the Muslim community and yes, it might lead to further marginalisation of vulnerable women. I raised this issue on Twitter and was told I should stay home

This is an example of throwing a group of women 'under the bus' for male concerns. That is completely out of order to tell you to 'stay at home'. A number of critics have insisted that the radical feminists are 'scare mongering' when we say that all signs are pointing to a shift that women are being forced back into 'the private sphere' (code for: stay at home). And you have really provided an example that this is the sentiment.

Personally I am also uncomfortable with the idea that I would have to use my faith as an excuse to defend my need for single-sex spaces. All women should be entitled to privacy and dignity if needed.

It is not really limited to Muslim women, but Jewish women as well. And if I am to use the example from Australia, the Aboriginal women have specific women-only rituals, spaces, etc. (The Aboriginal men do too actually). So sex segregation is not unique, it is practiced in varying degrees across many cultures/religions. The Aboriginal example is cultural, not religious, but could be deemed 'spiritual'.

It is not that 'your faith' is being used as an excuse - it does effect many women beyond Islam. It is merely part, and I guess, more of a 'shorthand' used because it is quite an obvious one of sex segregation on religious grounds. It is also unfortunate, but the Equality Act seems to give more protection for religious beliefs, rather than the privacy/dignity of those 'merely born female'. So your final sentence 'All women should be entitled to privacy and dignity' is actually our main aim. The Muslim example is really just one of many scenarios - which also includes OB/GYN services, women-only refuges, the safety of women in prison - all of it.

Thank you for making your thoughts heard on this thread. It is important to hear from all groups of women affected by this ('stakeholders' in the lingo). Please don't feel you are being used - you are not - it affects so many women from so many backgrounds, situations, beliefs, and of course, female safety.

AFAIK scrotal waxing needs specific training as it is very delicate skin and easily damaged. If the beautician wasn't trained in it (which I suspect a Muslim women would probably give a hard pass on that module) then the individual should be grateful that they were refused.

I'm sure there are establishments that offer crack and sack waxing, why not go to one of those?

Oh and the creep in the hat. What that article fails to mention is that that individual was not refused a make-up tutorial because they were transgender. They were refused because they had been stalking the owner for some time; staring into the window at her, following her to her car etc and she felt unsafe being in a room alone with them. But hey, we all now know that women's fear of creepy behaviour is bigotry and prejudice, so perhaps they were right to sue.

@Opheliah interesting, as my (female) labour MP ‘recognises’ concerns around all female spaces. She did not however respond to my specific concerns regarding the impact on intergration 🙄