Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

I also feel that if I was born with the mind I have now but looked down and saw a penis and hairy chest I would be pretty upset about it.

But given that that is impossible and has literally never happened to anyone anywhere and could never happen to anyone anywhere it's not really the greatest argument is it?

I'd be pretty fucking surprised if I woke up and I'd turned into a camel, or a pot plant but I'm not going to found my worldview on the possibility of those things happening to me

Anyone here have kids? Did you feel they were born with their own little characters and identities?

To some extent. Their very different ways of relating to the world are at least partly innate. And my younger girl and boy are far more similar in all their hobbies, preferences and abilities than their older brother is to either of them.

Their sense of self, their confidence, their ideas for the future and their mental health, however, is strongly influenced by their environment and their peers (and, I presume,at least a bit by their parents).

Do you believe that all women are inherently alike in terms of personality and interests?

Are you sure GC feminists don't think this? I've been told on here I can't possibly be a woman more times than I can count, based on some unspecified collection of stereotypes.

If I thought the tone would translate I might make a joke about considering identifying as non-binary!

I think that claiming that the GRA recognises "trans women as women" would be like trying to claim that child adoption laws (which also use the concept of legal fiction) recognise an adoptive mother as not only the legal mother, but also the biological mother.

As far as I know, the adoption laws don't go that far.

I also feel that if I was born with the mind I have now but looked down and saw a penis and hairy chest I would be pretty upset about it.

I would be fine with it

I think dh may have a few issues

daimbars wrote - "the current GRA which legally recognises trans women as women."

I think a problem with that is the meaning of "trans woman" has become very much wider, since the GRA became law.

I think the point of the GRA is that it introduces into law the legal fiction that male people with a GRC will be treated in law as if they are women. I think that is much narrower than your claim that it "legally recognises trans women as women."

If there isn't a common personality or set of interests held by all women that is easily distinguishable from the different personality and set of interests held by all men, how can anyone who is a man say that they are in fact a woman? What criteria are they using to ascertain their belonging in the category, woman? Dysphoria is a different kettle of fish, but having an extreme dislike of ones own sexual organs does not make you the opposite sex.

Distinguishing by sex is dead easy. Penis and bollocks = man. Vagina and womb = woman. It isn't water tight, there are people who don't quite fit but it's a damn sight better system of classification than this new alternative.

daimbars wrote - "Anyone here have kids?"

I know it's often not wise to assume things, but I think that assuming that some of the posters on this thread have kids is at the more likely end of the assumption spectrum - this is Mumsnet, a parenting forum.

But I do support the current GRA which legally recognises trans women as women.

Which, as I said, does not apply to all "trans women", as only a small percentage have a GRC, just like only a small percentage of them have surgery and many don't ever want or intend to have it.

Also I'm just going to keep repeating that it's disingenuous to claim the law recognises trans identified males as being exactly the same as women when there are exemptions.

Why do you think there are exemptions?

@daimbars , of course we all have our own identities but that isn't the question that was asked.

Do you believe that all women are inherently alike in terms of personality and interests?

Sorry that was an add on to my post Juells, not a response to you. That even if we agree there is something in that brain that makes people gender incongruent, however we define this, (which I don't) it doesn't make them the opposite sex.

For the sake of argument.

I actually feel I know a lot more than many people on these boards.

And yet you so sweetly ask for our opinions. Aaaaahhhh. So nice.

but I do believe that some people genuinely feel they have been born into the wrong sex.

And most people recognise that is a serious psychological disorder, even if it does have a biological basis.

as trans women are legally women and have all the same rights as biological women

This is incorrect. Only trans identified males with a GRC are "legally women". The rest benefit from the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" and the need not to discriminate against males with this protected characteristic. As opposed to sex.

Also, the law acknowledges that even a GRC is simply a legal fiction, given that there are specific exemptions allowed in both the GRA and the EA.

I don't walk around thinking "I'm a lady" and thinking lady-thoughts about glitter and ribbons. My body is my body, it's a female body. If I had a male body all my life that would be fine too, I imagine.

I present in a conventional female way, wear makeup, skirts, heels etc. I imagine if I was a man I'd be pretty gender conforming to male norms.

daim with all due respect, you don't seem to know what you are talking about. You are discussion a serious issue around women's rights and don't seem to know the first thing about feminism, the GRA, intersexed conditions, the transition process, the law or quite frankly anything else to do with the arguments around self id.

Go away and do a bit of reading before you accuse the women on this board, who have been reading and talking about this for years, of not understanding their stats or their argument.

You might get a better response.

I really do think that if we could at least somewhat temper that stuff almost everyone would be happier.

AIBU to be offended by a neo-vagina? To be reduced to a hole for a penis. That's not what a vagina is that's disgustingly sexist isn't it? Why aren't women more upset about this? I am fuming but I can't talk about it without sounding like a bigot or genital obsessed - but - FFS they're my genitals why don't I get an opinion?

So yes AAK I think it is the latter. I'm not sure we spend enough time on this forum explaining the social nature of gender. People like daimbars probably have no idea that their outdated sexist views are actively contributing to dysphoria

Rape vulnerability but not vaginal rape vulnerability. They do not actually have a vagina, they have modified male anatomy.

Also only a tiny proportion of trans identified males have had this surgery and most don't want it. A fact which SMG repeatedly ignores because that's not how they define "transitioning". Unlike all the organisations they are constantly appealing to the authority of.

SupermatchGame wrote - "TWrW is the truth in the way that a transitioned woman has altered enough physical aspects of sex to sometimes need the same protections that natal females need, for similar reasons. Weaker strength, vaginal rape vulnerability. Dignity. Privacy."

Rape vulnerability but not vaginal rape vulnerability. They do not actually have a vagina, they have modified male anatomy.