Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

But it makes absolutely no sense for someone to call themselves a feminist, and to have absolutely zero interest in or understanding of the concerns of women. You don't give a shit about us. You're interested only in fighting for the right for men to invade our spaces, under the guise that they're vulnerable. Let them fight for their own spaces, just like women had to.

This. I'm sorry that women and girls don't merit the same consideration and empathy that the male BFFs of our vibrant haired, woke OP are given by her, and expected of us.

And actually this is the feminist attitude that is most suited to my life

Well yes, it is evident that you can only see through your eyes! You are allright Jack - fuck the rest of them.

Honestly if DH responded to women's concerns with as little empathy as Rat does I'd divorce him.

*Everyone reasonable

f a trans woman was attacked or raped I hope as a society we would allow her to access support in a domestic violence or rape crisis hostel rather than dismissing her as a dangerous male.

Not a female only one, no. Don't pretend that anyone reasonable thinks the same as you. They don't.

If you gave any indication of actually having an emotional response to that other than frustration that other women are getting in the way of your political theory by not being as awesome as you think you are

Good description!

Acknowledging that self ID is a problem is very different to saying anyone who is trans should automatically be banned from female safe spaces.

As far as I know nobody has ever been stopped from providing a service for women and transwomen.

The problem is that without the acknowledgement that there is a difference between women and transwomen, it’s not possible to differentiate on the basis of sex.

This is a problem because women need specific services and accommodations because of their sex, not their identity.

@daimbars

Juells a lot of people are invested in this issue. We all want a world that is safe and tolerant for our kids to grow up in.

But it makes absolutely no sense for someone to call themselves a feminist, and to have absolutely zero interest in or understanding of the concerns of women. You don't give a shit about us. You're interested only in fighting for the right for men to invade our spaces, under the guise that they're vulnerable. Let them fight for their own spaces, just like women had to. You're not a feminist, and it's insulting to women to pretend that you are.

@RatRolyPoly

You say all the right words, in the right order, and they all sound logical. But almost every post of yours demonstrates that you have no empathy. You know what the word means, that's all.

That’s a ridiculous extrapolation Rat

You understand it's an over-extrapolation to make a point, don't you?

The point being that the argument I frequently have is with how far certain posters suggest we go to protect women, not that they suggest we do it at all (because obviously I agree we should do it).

I just hit Poe with Rat. Honestly can't tell if they're serious or not.

That’s a ridiculous extrapolation Rat

Women on average are weaker, slower and smaller than men.

And I don't disagree for a second that that physical power imbalance means that there are legitimate scenarios where proportionate segregation is wonderful for women - I've never proposed a view without being pro reasonable segregation - never.

But the argument is in the details. It's on the nuance and how I think many posters take it too far.

Even if I did feel vulnerable walking home at night, I wouldn't support separate streets for women; man streets and lady streets; because although undoubtedly women would be very, very safe with this arrangement, their right to be protected in the world has gone too far to obliterate our right to be a part of it.

And on empathy, realizing intellectually that other women are worried about things you're not worried about after they've told you so a billion times is not empathy. If you gave any indication of actually having an emotional response to that other than frustration that other women are getting in the way of your political theory by not being as awesome as you think you are then maybe.

What if you woke up in a different body?

In this scenario I am the Doctor and I would go and have a swim in the Tardis swimming pool.

Rat

Women on average are weaker, slower and smaller than men. Of course there will be outliers but they are the exceptions.
That’s biological differences due to sex. There’s a physical power imbalance.

Don’t you ever feel threatened walking down a street at night with a stranger behind you? Or getting on a night bus alone?

That's not what people are telling you, though. Many have tried to explain in many different ways but you just keep twisting everything to fit your perspective. Which honestly is more Ayn Rand than it is feminist.

I don't think Rat's inability to empathize is about not being female, it just seems to be a deeply unfortunate personality trait that some people have.

My empathy works just fine, thanks. But when it comes to Feminism it has to compete with my ingrained desire to argue with anyone who tells me women are weak, that women are a "special case", that we need super special lady things because we can't possibly just have what the boys have, that the world is for men and that we can't have it - that we need to have our own special area of it all carved out to protect us from the reality of the word we live in. But I want the world we live in; be it violent, abusive and flawed, and I want to be a part of making it better, because it's mine as much as any man's!

And the world is flawed, it is violent - it is these things for women and men. This isn't WATM, this is accepting that to me, the result of feminism can only be that bad things become simply equally as likely to happen to women as to men, not that they won't happen at all. And that they don't happen because we're women, or in a way that can only happen to a woman. Feminism isn't going to fix the human race. To try and wrap women up in cotton wool way beyond achieving that parity is going too far in infantilising us. It does more harm than good.

And actually this is the feminist attitude that is most suited to my life and the lives of the women I encounter - but we, of course, are not all women; we're a corner of womanhood in a privileged western country. What furthers us in the world won't help women elsewhere.

The truth is, where I think I perhaps go too far in not seeing female frailty, I think many here go too far the other way. We don't need single sex corridors that the toilets lead off, we don't need to know someone's born sex all the time so we can fear them - it's too far. It does women no good to suggest that that is what we need in Britain today.

We all want a world that is safe and tolerant for our kids to grow up in.

Yes - i want them to grow up, not to be pre-pubescent and sterile. That is the point.

That wasn't intended as a NotMyNigel, btw. I think most people have some level of empathy, it's those who don't who're unusual.

I don't think Rat's inability to empathize is about not being female, it just seems to be a deeply unfortunate personality trait that some people have

But Rat seems well able to empathise with those men who are the most oppressed people ever. Weird that.

I don't think Rat's inability to empathize is about not being female, it just seems to be a deeply unfortunate personality trait that some people have.

(My DH manages to empathize with women just fine in spite of having a penis.)

That's a lovely message but what about the safety of women in
-Domestic violence shelters
-Prisons

• Rape crisis centers

What about Muslims (4.4 Million in U.K.) and other conservative religious people who MUST have sex segregation for certain activities like these
-Current school policies regarding transgender students violates Muslim students religious code.
-Specialist sex segregated services (such as women only swim sessions)
-Public facilities that separate via gender and not sex (i.e. toilets, changing room)
-Inability to access healthcare from biological females.

What do you think the effects of this has on these women? DO you think that they will be forced OUT of public spaces. Don't you think that Muslim women from very traditional backgrounds already face more barriers than you or I? Do you think it likely that daughters could be removed and places in Muslim schools? What will this do for social cohesion?

Isn't it about time that TRA came up with solutions which respected these boundaries? They are NON NEGOTIABLE. Do you have any suggestions?

I don't think the GRA should be repealed purely because it would leave people who currently hold a GRC with questionable status.

I believe the GRA is now obsolete though. We have equal marriage and pension age will be equal in a matter of months.

Rat - you have said that it would be awful for employees to have to show a birth certificate that disclosed their birth sex for employment purposes. I can't remember the last time I had to provide a birth certificate when applying for a job. Employers want photo ID, proof of address, NI no. and bank details. They are also now required to check you have a right to live and work in the UK. Passports and drivers licences have replaced birth certificates as useful documentation, both of which you can get changed without a GRC.

Employers hold all sorts of sensitive info on you anyway. Medical questionnaires are normal for example, and if you have a lot of time off sick it's not unusual for employers to request access to your medical records.

Sometimes birth sex matters (genuine occupational requirement, e.g. personal care) and in those situations it should be acceptable to ask for a birth certificate. Even then, if a trans person has a birth certificate obtained via a GRC they currently have no legal obligation to inform prospective employers that they are trans and this is a loophole that needs to close. It should be a criminal offence to not disclose one's birth sex when applying for a job that legitimately uses a single sex exception.

Less secrecy all round would be good. There's a thin line between secrecy and privacy and I believe the GRA is the wrong side of that line now.