Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

two of mine deleted.

*Three. It was a different post.

Or is it

Im doing dreadfully if it is

Or maybe im doing well...hard to tell

R0wantrees
Do you have much experience of the criminal justice system Supermatchgame?

I'll take that as a no then.

It's a no. As I said before not all transitioned trans women are sex offenders and hence their inclusion in women prisons should be assessed on a case by case basis. That is what I said earlier and that is what I am saying now. That is also the legal position unless I have misunderstood?

And if we're talking about deleted posts, I have found only two of mine deleted. Many more of yours have been

Its not a competition

thebewilderness
Your accusations against the women here are deplorable. Your attempt to justify your accusations against the women here are disingenuous at best.
I have reported this post doubling down and justifying your deleted post.

I see the post you are referring to. I assumed it was deleted because I quoted one of Brendan O'Neil's articles which mentioned a well known sex offender.

In reference to the right wing perhaps I should have said that forum members were posting some material and views of those on the alt right. Therefore they were supporting some of the views of the alt right. The accusation of actually being the alt right was I agree a step too far and rightly deleted.

And if we're talking about deleted posts, I have found only two of mine deleted. Many more of yours have been.

SupermatchGame

We do not condemn people for agreeing with some of the things you say. Perhaps we should.
Your accusations against the women here are deplorable. Your attempt to justify your accusations against the women here are disingenuous at best.
I have reported this post doubling down and justifying your deleted post.

Do you have much experience of the criminal justice system Supermatchgame?

I'll take that as a no then.

Calling Feminists alt right (white supremacist neo Nazis) with all that entails was to me the ultimate insult.

Some Feminists. Alt right is used colloquially as a catch all for extreme right wing:

"The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely-connected and somewhat ill-defined grouping of white supremacists, neo-Confederates, neo-Nazis, neo-fascists, and other far-right fringe hate groups. Alt-right beliefs have been described as isolationist, protectionist, antisemitic and white supremacist, frequently overlapping with neo-Nazism, identitarianism, nativism and Islamophobia, antifeminism, misogyny and homophobia,.."

It was in response to the many times feminists have posted materials by extreme right wingers who write about trans people such as Brendan O'Neil (see thread) where even other feminists have pointed out how misogynist he is. Also happens in the Transgender Medicine thread where a representative of the American College of Pediatricians is presented and supported because of his views on trans people. His small right wing campaign group also states in their position statement on same sex parenting:

There is significant risk of harm inherent in exposing a child to the homosexual lifestyle. Given the current body of evidence, the American College of Pediatricians believes it is inappropriate, potentially hazardous to children, and dangerously irresponsible to change the age-old prohibition on same-sex parenting, whether by adoption, foster care, or reproductive manipulation. This position is rooted in the best available science.

These are the people who are often held up by rad fems on this forum as being wrong about everything except what they say about transgender.

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

I may be wrong but I thought the GRA was actually at the time to ensure that trans people were able to marry without legal issues (100% behind that one) and the Equality Act came afterwards which made the GRA obsolete? The Equality Act definitely needs re writing as it's been made into a well intentioned but muddled mess.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Seriously?? don't be silly No. Of course not.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Until fairly recently, I'd have said yes without hesitation and I still want to say yes.however since this is increasingly being used as the thin end of the wedge to remove women's right to sex segregation, doubts are creeping in.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Well obviously not since there are plenty of trans MNetters. I don't think the BNP are representative of the UK as a whole either. That doesn't stop me having serious concerns about their views, motives and actions. Or that these are the people being invited to give their views to government in the formation of policy while silencing and abusing other parts of the trans community who have different views or experiences. It would be a bit strange not to be concerned about this?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman?

Yes. I know you specify that only direct personal experiences count, but I don't share personal information on demand thanks. I feel my safety and wellbeing as a woman is threatened both personally and generally as removing all meaning from the word 'woman' and removing sex segregation from women, as well as their right to make personal choices about privacy and dignity, is a threat to the safety and wellbeing of all women.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women?

No.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

Be patient as they may also repeatedly tell me they are a cat or a pokemon, raise them in a home where they know from birth that boys and girls can wear any clothes they like, play with whoever they like, play with whatever toys they like, and avoid gender stereotypes/teach them to question gender stereotypes. The distress at the thought of puberty would obviously need different support based on age/any other needs, it's specific to the child. I'd try to identify the underlying reasons why puberty felt so upsetting to them and address those, help them understand and have as much experience as possible that many children of both sexes struggle with puberty and bodily changes, give them the emotional and practical support they needed at the time, and support them in being as gender non conforming as they felt drawn to be.

Do you have much experience of the criminal justice system Supermatchgame?

Much of my work has intersected with it, along with safeguarding and DV services whilst supporting a wide range of people (of both sexes) who are vulnerable.
I haven't worked in prisons (though have been in a few).
Anne Ruzylo is a former prison officer though and speaks of her concerns in this clip:

@SupermatchGame And not all violent or sex offenders have been caught and successfully prosecuted.

Not all men are violent/sex offenders either, should we let them into the female estate because they’re feeling uncomfortable in the male estate by a case by case basis?

SupermatchGame
You are missing the point and your comment about 'shock' is churlish.

R0wantrees
who have been convicted of murder and continue to be held in the female prison estate. This is despite using what SMG believed were sensible assessments by the prison service.

I didn't say those specific cases were sensible assessments. Every single process involving humans is subject to some human error and no process is 100%. But the case by case basis is relevant because (and prepare yourself for a shock here) not all trans women are violent/ sex offenders.

Furthermore, I would suggest that those who comment, "using discretion and assessing on a case by case basis, as per the current law, is my suggestion." have little awareness of how law affects risk assessments.

Daimbar you wrote "if a trans woman was attacked or raped I hope as a society we would allow her to access support in a domestic violence or rape crisis hostel rather than dismissing her as a dangerous male.
If a predatory TRA decided to self ID as female to deliberately access a woman's safe space then that is a different scenario.
Using discretion and assessing on a case by case basis, as per the current law, is my suggestion."

Please read the part of this thread from Fri 11-May-18 19:30 with respect to trans women prisoners Sophie Eastwood and Alex Stewart.

Sources from recent articles (links to which are in the thread) have commented:
"Despite their new female identities neither have had surgery, and fellow inmates complained that they felt intimidated around the pair because of their behaviour."

"The women inmates have had to accept that Stewart is being allowed to live as a woman, despite not having had surgery.
That means she is in the showers at the same time as other inmates, which some have found quite awkard.
She has the right to determine her own gender."

Hopefully you will be able, as SuperMatchGame did, to acknowledge the very real issues that already exist (prior to the possible changes in GRA to include self id) when some male-born people are able to access what were previously single sex spaces?

The rebuttal against concerns for women prisoners with regards transgender prisoners, is often that "individuals are assessed on a case by case basis."

SMG replied "Yes I acknowledge there are very real issues when some male-born people are able to access what are single sex (female) spaces.
Yes, sounds sensible [that individuals are assessed on a case by case basis] given that not all transgender prisoners have committed sex crimes or are a risk."

& yet significant issues have been demonstrated recently in respect to these prisoners, Sophie Eastwood ("previously dubbed “Hannibal Lecter Jnr” over the chilling intimidation of a female guard") and Alex Stewart, who have been convicted of murder and continue to be held in the female prison estate. This is despite using what SMG believed were sensible assessments by the prison service.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

I would reasonably anticipate that the prison service would have more information available to them (by way of pre-sentence reports, ongoing risk assessments, time and resources etc) than a women's refuge.

Additionally,
A woman using refuge services on the Victoria Derbyshire show (5/3/2018) shared what is, an incredibly important perspective.

Link discussing this here, although having checked, BBCiplayer no longer have the segment of the show available so I will try to find it:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3184532-Pilgrim-Tucker-who-spoke-at-the-meeting-last-Tuesday-being-stitched-up-on-TV-tomorrow

I think the needs of vulnerable women in prisons and those who need to use women's refuges deserve greater consideration.

I don't know Daimbar if your comment is made in good faith. Perhaps it is and when you raise it, you are thinking of the trans women you know and are motivated by empathy for them.

It is though very simplistic and at the very least, I would hope you are willing to engage with the reality of service provision for those who have experienced domestic violence.

The impression that I have, is that those who make such statements have very little understanding or awareness of this reality.

I would really like if the people advocating hormones and surgery would stay away from GNC children. Let them grow up and figure things out for themselves as adults, once the higher brain functions are fully online and they've had a chance to gain some life experience.

I don't care if it's already been said, your post was bloody marvelous @xxyzz

Apologies if points made umpteen times, haven't RTWT.

TL:DR - agreeing with gender stereotypes is NOT a feminist position.

If you want to limit people to fitting into prescribed gender stereotypes, there is no remote way you are a feminist.

So don't pretend you write as any kind of feminist, OP.

Don't have any strong feelings about the rest of the questions, but this one really annoys me:

"If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?"

To take the last point first, I remember as a (feminine) girl being absolutely terrified at the thought of puberty, binding my breasts etc. I hit puberty young and just wasn't ready to be an adult. Indeed, feeling scared of puberty and the reality of being an adult sexual being (either male or female) is entirely normal and something many/most people experience. It says absolutely nothing about gender identity let alone biological sex. (Needless to say, within a few years, I was perfectly happy to be an adult female, breasts and all.) Any caring parent would comfort a child who was scared of puberty, and put their feelings in context by explaining how normal their views are at that age, and how confusing and scary puberty is for everyone. They would not dream of casting irrevocable judgement on their gender or biological sex based on this very common feeling. Let alone actually consider medicalising it.

As to your child "wearing dresses" and "repeatedly telling you they were female from the age of three", I remember my dd insisting her nana was really male at the age of three, because she had short hair! The reality is that small children are trying to make sense of the world at that age, and do tend to leap to over-simplify the world eg categorising 'people with short hair' as male, or 'people who wear dresses' as female. Any responsible adult in that situation would explain to a small child that people are not defined by what they wear, and that men and women can wear whatever they like. Oh, and that his nana was not 'a boy' because she had short hair.

The idea of telling a child that they have to define themselves and everyone else according to their clothes preferences is just shocking to me. What kind of dreadful parent sends a message to their child that they can't choose to wear what the hell they like and that boys/girls have to fit into narrow categories that abide by patriarchally-approved dress codes? What do these parents do when they come across David Bowie and the New Romantics? Does their head explode? Do they think Duran Duran were all women, then, because they wore some fetching make up? Is David Beckham really a woman as he chose to wear a sarong? This sounds like something that would have been regarded as hopelessly old-fashioned and ultra-conservative and sexist 40 years ago. How have we managed to go back to a world where people like you can imply that gender-segregated clothing is normal or desirable? And more than that, how can you have the brass neck to imply that that is a FEMINIST position??!!

OP - do you think that women who wear trousers are really all men inside??!

What point were you trying to make with this question??!

I am both angry and baffled.

Your stance hurts both men and women. Feminists have spent decades fighting these limitations on how men and women may dress and behave. Boys aren't cissies if they cry or wear pink and women don't have to dress like 'ladies' and be sweet and meek all the time.

My question to you now - if you genuinely think that if a boy likes wearing pink or flowers or a skirt, or (shock horror!) "plays with girls", that this implies he is less of a boy, let alone actually a girl, how can you dare to call yourself any kind of feminist at all?

What is your real agenda here?

I believe trans people need to be campaigning for their own safe spaces.

Some people have been at the suggestion that we have had an 'honour system' but that is exactly what we have had for toilets and changing rooms for a very long time. We actually have no clue how many of the male people using women's toilets are trans and how many are cross-dressing wanky men or just doing it for a laugh, and we have no way of checking. So until very recently yes, there has been an honour system in these specific contexts where we will politely turn a blind eye up to the point where a male person's behaviour (including how they choose to present) causes us alarm. The understanding has been that at that point, we can raise the alarm and challenge their presence.

I don't know if that is still possible. Travis Alabanza managed to get topshop to allow him access to female changing rooms even though he doesn't ID as a woman.

In more formal contexts (anywhere requiring ID) specific rules and guidance have been developed, often differentiating between those with a GRC and those without. One thing that is often posted is the notion that prisons treat people on a 'case by case basis' and this is not strictly true.

Prison instructions for trans prisoners can be downloaded here - scroll down to '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders'.

The prison service go by legal sex, first and foremost. They're not allowed to ask to see a GRC but they can ask for a birth certificate (the sole remaining thing a GRC is good for). If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they will be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are. They will still be housed separately from men and will be accommodated in line with PSI for female prisoners. TW prisoners with a GRC are treated as female in all circumstances.

There is case law directly referenced in the prison rules linked above that says that even if a tw is in prison for attempted rape, if they have a grc and hence a bc that says 'female', they must be sent to a women's prison. The bar is very low as we have seen in various cases that have made mainstream media.

Only for trans prisoners without a GRC - i.e. those who are legally male - are decisions made on a case by case basis. And the Transgender Case Board are no fools, which is why all those self ID trans sex offenders are still treated as male prisoners in the male estate.

Changing the GRA to a self-ID process would allow all of them to be treated as female. The vast majority would have to be moved to the female estate, with only the few exceptionally dangerous ones remaining in the male estate, but housed there as female prisoners.

Hormone treatment and surgery have nothing to do with the GRA. I thought you'd have realised this after pages of people unanimously saying 'no, don't be stupid' in response to your second question. Yet you come out with:

If it was illegal to change sex do you think a person's gender dysphoria would blow over and they would learn to be happy in their own skin?

Or do you think there would be a lot of dodgy surgery and illegal hormone trading on the black market?

• which suggests that either you have no clue what you are talking about or you are being extremely disingenuous.

Less than 5000 GRCs have been issued since the GRA was enacted. The vast majority of trans people, even those who have had hormones and surgery, don't bother getting a GRC because it's obsolete.

You can get a GRC without any hormones or surgery. You need two medical reports, at least one of which confirms you have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. You don't necessarily have to have treatment.

By the way there is already dodgy surgery going on and illegal hormone trading, for example where someone does not meet the age or clinical criteria for NHS treatment they may seek surgery abroad or buy hormones over the internet.

"You need to stop asking this question. Why can't we just go along with the idea that TIMs are women? What does it matter to you? You've still got your EA exemptions!"

But yeah, like AAK who is more sensible than me I'm going to let you balance that ball on your nose and stop distracting you now. It might help with the hangover.

Anyway, I'm off. Definitely off this time.

"We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when..!"