Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

so just shon saying enjoy your erasure, is the only example of a trans woman with access to media platforms saying something inflammatory? Thats it? You do know Shon is attacked mercilessly on here and by transphobes, but that merits it?

Bergdorf has lost TWO jobs due to offensive mouthing off on social meeja (ok resigned from one but really, was that jumped before being pushed)

Jane 'domestic violence gone wrong' Fae?

Yeah, you can just see how well they identify with women

crispbuttyfan, what Shon 'enjoy your erasure' Fay? Nope, never said anything like that. No siree.

I often get the impression on here that rad fems refuse the acknowledge the existence and experience of being trans but maybe that isn't so.
I’ve been on MN for 10 years I’ve never seen anyone deny transgender people’s existence or experiences. Of course transgender people exist plenty of them make their existence felt sure enough and experience their lives as they do. It doesn’t make a transwoman’s experience the same as a woman’s experience though.

So when you 'peak trans' it's not against all trans people? As that is how it comes across.
OP you’re starting to sound disingenous, so I’m going to assume you just haven’t been reading gender critical viewpoints for very long. “Peak trans” is not about being “against” anybody - it’s shorthand for the scales falling from your eyes and realising that blindly accepting “transwomen are women” is a regressive ideology which upholds gender stereotypes, harms women and all gender non-conforming people and generally just does not fit with everything feminism has fought, and continues to fight for.

OP you also seem to be labouring under the impression that liberal feminism = accepting transgenderism and radical feminism = gender critical, which isn’t strictly the case, liberal and radical do not mean what you think they mean. Trans activists just use “radfem” as a (in their minds) derogatory term toward gender critical women, and because it makes their TERF anacronym scan nicely. Liberal doesn’t mean nicey nicey and radical doesn’t mean angry shouty.

Interesting thread, I'm sorry to derail it slightly, but a serious point and a particular bug-bear of mine has popped up..

*Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No, but unfortunately they seem to be the ones who are being invited to speak to people with the power to change things, and who get invited to contribute on TV/radio/media etc.*

Can anyone refer me to any instance where a trans person invited onto media such as Paris, Shon, Jane Fae, Monroe, Roz Kaveny, etc etc has said anything remotely similar to the above?

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

Yes

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Absolutely not. A fully transitioned person no longer produces their own so need HRT.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Loos they have been using forever. Prison's need a block for vulnerable prisoners, Trans inmates could go in there. Care homes are usually mixed. Hostels should be segregated by sex and trans people should think about natal sex needs over their own wants.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

They certainly represent TRA but trans in general? Probably not.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Newspaper reports of what has happened to women in shared spaces.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

No, they can be interpreted by any company/service provider at will.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

By letting them dress in what they wanted and play with what they wanted and not making a song and dance about it.

Lol. So let's re-evaluate when the male violence problem has been solved? Like in 4000 years time

Well yes. If the male sex as a group wasn't so problematic towards women then we wouldn't need sex segregated spaces so much for dignity and privacy. This isn't the case at the moment so yes we need segregated prisons etc. HTH

By mixed do you mean contaminated?
No, I mean as in mixed sex which is blindingly obvious from the context

I don't think a world without stereotypes is going to help someone come to terms with what they believe to be the "wrong" sexed body though is it.

Possibly not. But lying to them and saying either that they are already a member of the opposite sex or that if they do X Y and Z they will become a member of the opposite sex is not that clever a strategy either.

@PeakPants trans ideology requires us all to accept that it is possible to change sex, and that it is possible to have a brain that is the "wrong sex" for the rest of the body. If we don't accept that, then we are told that we are erasing the existence of trans people.

But surely it can be seen that this is a matter of belief. I'm not required to believe everything that other people believe, so why is this different? The fact that I don't believe in reincarnation doesn't erase the existence of Buddhists.

I often get the impression on here that rad fems refuse the acknowledge the existence and experience of being trans but maybe that isn't so.

For goodness sakes.

There are people with genuine dysphoria
There are people who get their rocks off dressing as women
There are people who are genuinely confused due to the messages they are getting
There are people who tag onto any and all campaigns esp if it means having a pop at women
There are people who are genuinely evil
There are people that are lovely
There are people that will take advantage of any way of accessing female spaces
There are people that use any methods to get female spaces closed down
There are people that really do need to escape from partners and who need a safe space

The problem is, that we have no idea how to sort these people now as the mere mention of men in women's spaces gets an abusive pile on.

Nobody is going to repeal any GRA because of the death threats they will receive.

The way forward is to work out some way of keeping potential male attackers out of safe spaces, and how to campaign to get trans spaces sorted without endangering women and girls.

Until the government sits down and talk to women AND trans groups about potential ways forward, none of this is going to be resolved.

At the moment, women cannot even meet up to talk about it without getting blocked, attacked, harassed and risk losing their jobs and potentially homes. So it is kind of hard to suggest peaceful ways forward when up against this time after time.

Jeez louise PeakPants, in my head I'm 25. When people treat me like a hairy chinned middle aged lady are they denying my existence?

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

Statements like this seem very intolerant, esp as people remember when homosexuality was considered a mental illness. However, gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Nobody is born in the wrong body and it's physically impossible to change sex. Hormones and surgery can relieve the symptoms of this condition but this is all they do. I think that 'trans' should be a term limited to these people - who really do suffer tremendously.

The 'trans-umberlla' however includes so many identities that this conception of a transexual (i.e. Nadia from big brother) is being replaced with the idea that Eddie Izzard is also a woman.

Here is the stonewall definition of trans

An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, denderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

See this transexual Rose of Dawn explaining her problems with this concept. I can't speak for most people but I think the majority of the people who post on this forum would agree with most of the points Dawn raises.

I myself fall into this broad based definition because my gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. As a kid I had short hair, boys clothes, all my friends were boys. My mother was supportive however and I eventually 'grew' out of it into a perfectly well adjusted bisexual woman. In 80% of cases this is what happens. Many gay (and straight) children have a gender non-conforming childhood. If I had somebody coming into school and 'educating' me about this thing called transgender and how I could literally become a man I probably would have been thrilled! It's a lie. You can't change sex. Children do not have the mental capacity to make such a decision. Many people (myself included) fear that this is a form of social eugenics where the next generation of gay kids will be left infertile. Is this a form of 21st century conversion therapy? It would be nice if we were allowed to discuss this.

I myself have had some very upsetting experiences on twitter with many self identified women. I could just tell they weren't women because they still behaved like men. I had creepy come on's by someone who kept talking about his 'girl cock' and was piled on my a bunch of MRA types by another trans woman. The thought of these self described 'lesbians' let loose on the gay village filled me with such concern for young lesbian's, just coming out trying to find their community. Then I heard about the 'Cotton-Celing.' It's truly horrific.

www.feministcurrent.com/2017/01/13/todays-shameless-lesbians-wont-queered/

Sorry if this is rambling and doesn't address your points specifically but I think it gives a good reflection of many of the debates that occur on these threads.

This may be impractical at the moment due to male violence so

Lol. So let's re-evaluate when the male violence problem has been solved? Like in 4000 years time.

the Transwomen are women mantra is leading to single sex spaces (both literal (eg prisons) and metaphorical ( eg sports)) become mixed

By mixed do you mean contaminated?

No, No, No, No, Some, Yes.

('Some' are those nutters on SM who made death threats against me, threatened me with rape and told me I was homophobic for saying that Lesbians do not want dicks. Those men scared me and made me feel unsafe).

The final question: I wouldn't 'help' them. I would support them with kind words, counselling & love but there would be no doctors appts, no puberty blockers, no hormones and so on. If they still wanted to trans as an adult I couldn't stop them, but I wouldn't fund or facilitate it. They would still be my child and I would love them till the end of the Earth, but I wouldn't help them do anything to their bodies that was not reversible.

I am not 'phobic' about trans people. They don't scare me. I accept their existence and can sympathise with them for the way they feel.

Peak trans came for me when I read the for the first time a Transwoman call themselves a lesbian. Then again when a Transwoman beat the crap out of a woman in MMA. Then again with a Transwoman in a Woman's Aid Shelter meaning the women moved out. Nothing to do with 'all' trans people - I think Hope Lye is ace, I like Debbie &
Miranda and a number of other transwomen. I don't know any transmen, but I'm sure there are decent ones out there.

I'm a RadFem. And a proud PERF.
The "radical" in radical feminism means "root", not "extreme", because radical feminism regards patriarchy as the root cause of the oppression of women by men. And I'm a PERF because my feminism is penis exclusionary.

I think when people are saying denying existence they don’t mean that you are denying their literal existence. It’s the fact that some people are saying trans is not a thing, it’s a mental illness, they are all deluded men etc. THAT is denying their existence because that is not how they perceive themselves.

Also the EA exemptions would NOT be rendered meaningless by self-ID. They would make it easier to get a GRC but it’s possible to exclude people with a GRC at the moment and it will be even if self ID comes in.

Answers below.

Ideally yes. Pragmatically, no. Would like to see it tightened up, with the right in certain circumstances (not just because someone's a prurient nosy bastard) to ask to see a GRC.

withdrawing hormones
who has ever said this?

I'm not interested in policing who uses the toilets, but people should show consideration for others - transwomen should be aware that when they use that door marked 'women' there is a possibility that they're stopping a woman using it. If they still choose to do so there's not a lot I can do about that.

Regarding prisons, I think we need special accommodation for medically transitioned people - they deserve to be kept safe, and so do women prisoners.

No

Not physically. But I think the idea of 'lady brain', which it seems to me is at the heart of wanting to transition is inherently sexist and perpetuates the idea that the oppression of women is somehow natural.

Only if organisations feel comfortable about using EA exemptions, which clearly at the moment many do not.

I would help my child by letting them wear, and play with what they like. I would also make it clear their body is absolutely right for them, no-one can be born in the wrong body. I would do everything in my power to ensure they went through male puberty. depriving people of sexual function and the opportunity to develop their brain by going through puberty is very, very wrong.

Currently fully transitioned transwomen are generally welcomed in women-only spaces as a courtesy on an honour system.

No they are not. This is your fictional honour system. They are legally entitled to use most women-only spaces by law. There are certain situations where they may be excluded if necessary but this is a minority.

daimbars
Reality I would say that makes you liberal, why do you say you are rad fem?

I don’t think your understanding of either liberal or radical feminism is complete. For one thing, you seem to think they are defined in relation to trans issues. They are not.

I don't know if I'm a radical feminist but I changed my username once all the twitter vs Mumsnet stiff kicked off last week. I would say that peak transed me. But I know around six or seven trans people that I see regularly and I have nothing against them as individuals at all. Peak trans to me is a realisation at the extremism of the ideology.

In fact of all the transpeople I've spoken to irl, they've all agreed with my concerns and say that holding those views they don't consider to be transphobic.

I'm on the app so can't see your questions whilst typing but my two main concerns are - children going down a medical route before they know who they are, especially those who would grow up to be LG or B or who are on the autism spectrum. Secondly, the safeguards around the sexual fetishists. They do definitely exist because I was in a relationship with one. They are a different group from those with gender dysphoria and I think do need to be treated differently in respect of sex segregated spaces.

Speaking only for myself

Mumsnet

Talk Feminism chat
Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems11
Today 18:15 daimbars

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

Yes. Instead beef up all of the protections in the Equality Act.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Of course not. People can modify their bodies however they like.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Ultimately yes. They are male. This may be impractical at the moment due to male violence so perhaps trans people should fight for their own spaces.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Yes. The pushing of the Transwomen are women mantra is leading to single sex spaces (both literal (eg prisons) and metaphorical ( eg sports)) become mixed with pretty much no thought or consultation.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women

They might be if they were actually used an enforced. Suspect they need to be needed up a bit.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them

I would gently explain that they were a male and it is not possible to change that. I would explore the reasons they believed this. I would explain that of course boys can wear dresses and play with girls, and of course girls can wear trousers and play with boys. I would explain that puberty happens to everyone, boys and girls, it's just a natural part of growing up. That everyone finds puberty difficult and scary, and that's ok.

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

No. The fact that someone can legally change gender doesn't alter material reality, no one can actually change sex. They can be treated as if they were the opposite sex (with important exclusions) if they have a GRC.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

No, why would anyone suggest that?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

If by fully transition, you mean having had full surgery, then using women's facilities is acceptable, as long as consideration is given to women in that situation. So someone who is still identifiable male despite surgery & GRC may cause issues for some women, and organisations should be able to use the exceptions under the law to stick to single sex services. In that situation I would hope there would be unisex facilities that could be used instead.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No, but unfortunately they seem to be the ones who are being invited to speak to people with the power to change things, and who get invited to contribute on TV/radio/media etc.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

No, because not all trans people are the same. The risk to my safety from trans women will be the same as my risk from men, in all likelihood. I'm not in fear of trans men at all.

I do have some reservations about those trans women whose motivation may be sexual, as I don't want to be an unwilling participant in anyone else's sex life.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discriminationn*

Nope. They ought to be, but organizations seem terrified of using the exemptions presumably for fear of being labeled transphobic and suffering the consequences. Women's sport is a mess as a result. I would really hope that rape crisis organisations, shelters and so on are able to serve the women they need to without this all impacting on them.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

I wouldn't promise them they could become a girl/women as that's not possible, but I would focus on the fact that anyone can do/wear/behave etc as they want. I would go for watchful waiting, and for counselling. I would talk about how when they're older, if they still feel the same then they could consider changing their body to try and help how they feel.

"Trans women are women"

Please define what is a women.

Hint: difficult to do without using biology

That’s a lot of questions and radical feminists aren’t the Borg, so I wouldn’t seek to represent All Radical Feminism. I don’t know how you feel you can give simple yes/no answers to all of them, they are not simple questions.

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?
I don’t know. I certainly think it is very unhelpful to conflate legal recognition of gender reassignment with sex. They are not the same thing.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned? That’s a question for individuals and their doctors isn’t it. I do think that people should continue to receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria before being prescribed medical treatment for it on the NHS, treatment should not be available on demand funded by taxpayers. Psychological support should be much much much more easily available than it is now, although that is across the board, not just for individuals with gender identity issues.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?
I don’t know who Nadia from Big Brother is. Currently fully transitioned transwomen are generally welcomed in women-only spaces as a courtesy on an honour system. Unless their individual behaviour is problematic they are generally accepted. That’s fine. It’s when self-trans-identified men who make little concession to transition or respect female social norms attempt to force their way into women-only spaces as a way to validate their identity, that women have a problem with it. The problem here is the trans umbrella encompassing all non-gender-conforming people and granting the same rights as transsexuals or those with crippling gender dysphoria, to fetishists and sexual predators, and if women are not permitted to differentiate, then none would be welcome quite frankly.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?
I think they certainly seek to be, but I doubt they are.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?
Some transwomen do, just as some men do. I have had very uncomfortable experiences at gigs for example and was injured by a transwoman at one. But this question feels goady to be honest, no feminist I’ve ever met would agree with such a blanket inflammatory statement.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women
Well, they should be, if they were upheld. But if the GRA is amended to allow self-declaration then the exceptions would be meaningless.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?
No one can, or should, answer this with a one-size-fits-all answer. Until one lives they experience one can never know. But I’d hope the answer would be age-appropriate explanations of what male and female mean, what sex and gender are, that wearing whatever you like and having whatever friends you like doesn’t alter your sex, but your sex doesn’t stop you wearing or doing whatever you want, constant loving non-judgemental support to do, wear, be whatever they wish to be and seeking professional psychological support if appropriate (real, open minded, psychological support to help them understand and manage their dysphoria, not blind woke gender-stereotype-affirming “support”). I’d look for gender critical support groups for parents to support me with how to best support my child so they can hopefully grow up happy and healthy in their own body, trying to reduce the risk of them spending their life chasing a futile impossibility, reliant on medication, infertile, surgically scarred.

Question for you - why are you interested in how feminists would support their male gender non-conforming children, and not female ones?

Btw - I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem. Nope - that’s what makes you a good parent. Liberal feminism is feminism which seeks to effect change within the current system (patriarchy); radical feminism seeks to tear the system down and build a new, equitable one.