Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

SuperMatchGame
I will happily add a 'sometimes' to my comment with regards my comment about derails and add that I was thinking specifically of some of your posts made on Friday night on this thread. We are of course all able to decide on relevance and post freely here for which I am very grateful.

@daimbars did you understand my answer to your question about how boy brain girl brain genderist thinking contributes to dysphoria in children? Only with you being so passionate about people suffering with GID and asking questions specifically in support of them I wondered if you had paused to reflect on this. Some of us are seeing the competing narratives at work on children who could easily go either way. One way leads to great suffering. The other to radical self acceptance.

@xxyzz Thank you!!

I'm talking about transitioned trans women, with no record or risk of offending.

Then why are they incarcerated? WTF are you talking about?

Perhaps Sarah Ditum's article in The Guardian today is helpful to read:
(extract)
"In 2016, the women and equalities committee published its trans inquiry report. It recommended changing the protected characteristic from “gender reassignment” (not sex) to “gender identity”. More than two years later, there’s been no legislative progress, meaning both women and trans people have been left in limbo about how their conflicting rights will be resolved. Yet at the same time, there’s been a rapid informal adoption of gender identity as the defining marker for accessing women-only services and spaces.

From Labour’s all-women shortlists to the Guides to workplace mentoring schemes, things designed for women (or girls) are now open to self-identified women. A small shift in semantics, but a significant one. For women, it means their sex is increasingly cast as a matter of feeling, not fact – no minor thing when your sex is the one that takes the brunt of pregnancy, maternity discrimination, unpaid domestic labour, sexual harassment and rape. Areas established as female-only have become in effect “gender-neutral”, while gender at large stubbornly refuses to be neutralised.

For some trans women, particularly those who transitioned before the current consensus on gender identity, this new environment isn’t a triumph – it’s a threat. Having gone through sex reassignment and empathised with the experiences of being female in a sexist society, they understand that removing all limits and safeguards on the legal definition of sex creates a loophole for violent men. And that leaves trans women as vulnerable as it does all women: if the problem is male violence, then trans people have every bit as much interest as all women do in keeping bad-faith claims from gaining legal force."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/13/genderquake-failed-now-for-a-proper-trans-debate

My contributions aren't derails, and I don't need you to decide how relevant my posts are thank you.

Quite.

At what point does one transition?

What ever our opinions, in practice the decision will be made by the organisations and authorities involved.

R0wantrees
What is striking to me in the things I have read is the absence of any consideration of the needs of the women prisoners already held in the prison estate.

That is exactly why I agree with the case by case basis - so the risk to women can be assessed. That isn't for the benefit of the trans prisoner, it is to safeguard the safety of the other female prisoners.

Your derails, SuperMatchGame less so....

My contributions aren't derails, and I don't need you to decide how relevant my posts are thank you.

At what point does one transition?

That's great and all, but we're not responsible for the umbrella being expanded to ludicrous proportions, so maybe take that up with the organizations that are.

That's why there is a consultation so we can all have a say. Stonewall have highlighted the exception to inclusion in their policy where it matters with regards to some single sex facilities.

lol, it's not hard. You're making up your own arbitrary definitions of "trans woman" yet citing Stonewall as an authority. Ask them what "transgender" means.

I was quite clearly talking about transitioned trans women. I cited Stonewall earlier as one of many organisations that would not bar all transitioned trans women from female spaces. That doesn't mean I think all transgender males should have access to female prisons - and I didn't say they should.

I'm sure you can ask a friend what male means. Or use a dictionary.

Alright for you to be snarky isn't it. Yet you call me out on it.

There is a need for impact studies on the possible effects for girls and women. To be discussing this on FWR board seems appropriate.

Your derails, SuperMatchGame less so....

What is striking to me in the things I have read is the absence of any consideration of the needs of the women prisoners already held in the prison estate.

This seems a similar theme in inclusion policies elsewhere that I have read such as sports, school loos / changing rooms and GRA discussion.

There is a need for impact studies on the possible effects for girls and women. To be discussing this on FWR board seems appropriate.

And yes I'm well aware my posts get deleted too, but I'm not boasting about it.

Yes there was a slight hint of boast. Cringed when I read it back. I didn't bring up the subject of deletions another person did and I responded.

GRC I meant...

I'm talking about transitioned trans women, with no record or risk of offending.

It really would be of benefit if you read a little more about the 'law' you talk of upthread.

I believe the precedent was set by Karen Jones who was transferred to female prison estate prior to GRS and GRA having being previously convicted of both murder and a sexual offence.

I am still reading and trying to understand better, there is a lot to understand, hence the 'I believe'.

Surely the bar for whether or not a male person is transferred to a women's prison could be a bit higher than "is not a violent sex offender".

You'd think, wouldn't you!

And what exactly is a 'transgender identified male'?

lol, it's not hard. You're making up your own arbitrary definitions of "trans woman" yet citing Stonewall as an authority. Ask them what "transgender" means. I'm sure you can ask a friend what male means. Or use a dictionary.

That's great and all, but we're not responsible for the umbrella being expanded to ludicrous proportions, so maybe take that up with the organizations that are.

And if we're talking about deleted posts, I have found only two of mine deleted.

I've seen more than that in the short time I've seen your username on Mumsnet. Perhaps you're just not that observant?

And yes I'm well aware my posts get deleted too, but I'm not boasting about it.

Only 40% of transgender identified males currently incarcerated are violent/sex offenders is rather a bizarre NAMALT to offer up.

And what exactly is a 'transgender identified male'? That could be anyone under the wide umbrella that, remember, I'm not in favour of. I'm talking about transitioned trans women, with no record or risk of offending.

Surely the bar for whether or not a male person is transferred to a women's prison could be a bit higher than "is not a violent sex offender".

(I'd say it should be set at "we don't transfer males to women's prisons, instead we make specific provision for them in men's prisons as needed".)

Its not a competition

I know. But I don't like it when I see a post deleted as it makes me question if I've said something wrong. Which on occasion most of us have.

It's a no (SuperMatchGame does not have experience of the CJS). As I said before not all transitioned trans women are sex offenders and hence their inclusion in women prisons should be assessed on a case by case basis. That is what I said earlier and that is what I am saying now. That is also the legal position unless I have misunderstood?

SuperMatchGame I recommend Anne Ruzylo's video ... she speaks of the pressures (legal, political and otherwise) put on 'case by case assessments' made by the prison service.

But the case by case basis is relevant because (and prepare yourself for a shock here) not all trans women are violent/ sex offenders.

Only 40% of transgender identified males currently incarcerated are violent/sex offenders is rather a bizarre NAMALT to offer up.