Laurie Penny's Mirror World

Is there a way to hide this thread? It is unbearable, so patronising. She really thinks she knows things we don't and has looked at things more objectively and intellectually and empathically. All the things. Massive, massive superiority complex.

If I can't hide the thread I'll just go offline for a few days. But if it's possible to hide it that would be preferable. Thanks in advance for help offered.

What about the Deptford tweets Laurie? Can someone link please? Am breastfeeding on phone.

Sorry that should have been ‘a lot of angry people who are already marginalised worried about threats to their identity and organising practices- and a few bad apples spreading misinformation.’

I don’t think anyone’s a ‘bitter twisted hag’. What I see is a lot of angry

Some of the threads I had read before. The widows one I hadn’t. It’s really harrowing- a lot of abusive relationships there. I’m so sorry that this has been so many people’s experience with trans partners. I don’t think it’s the rule- I know many women who are in happy relationships with trans partners. I’ve had such relationships myself.

I can totally see that if your main personal experience of someone going through transition is lies, gaslighting and family breakdown then it could feel very hard to sympathise. I know of marriages and partnerships that have made it through the process, and others that haven’t, with no fault on either side.

In fact, initially part of the point of the GRA was- pre gay marriage- to make it possible for trans people who wanted to do so to stay married. Previously a change in gender would have invalidated those marriages.

I’m not au fait with the girl guiding discussion happening here- but in general I DO trust individual organisations to do the necessary checks and decide on a case by case basis who is suitable to work with children

This isn't the kind of approach a journalist should take: "It's a respectable organisation. I'm sure all will be fine."

I’m not suggesting anyone here is involved in that, though I hope not.

How about seeing if the side you appear to favour are involved in bullying, attacking and threatening women?

Take a look at that link, it's got a list of threads that I found useful and covers some issues that I have. We're not the bitter twisted hags that we are made out to be.

Joan, I’m not going to respond to you because you’ve clearly no interest in arguing in good faith

Ooooh look, Penny has noticed that women like me down here in the dirt actually exist! Oh but look, there she goes again, holding her petticoats free of the mud.

But you're part right. I have no faith in you. And why should I? Who the fuck are you anyway? Just some posh kid who thinks they can civilise the common women.

Ugh. I'm out - you're sick and you make me sick. I hope women will forgive you when you reach your best before date, it's not far off now.

As far as Joan’s comments above ^ I promise not to use anything said here for anything I’m writing without the explicit permission of everyone involved. I’m not doing this for a piece, although I am supposed to be writing one- frankly I started it a month ago and was meant to be putting across a more ‘balanced’ view and asking how we can resolve differences, but the level of vitriol and attacks I’ve seen have meant I’m almost too disturbed to do it. I’m not suggesting anyone here is involved in that, though I hope not.

Someone that's been seduced by a man who believes he is woman is a long way down the rabbit hole of self justification there. I feel a bit sorry for her really.

Also, I have in the past attempted to join threads where people were saying a whole mess of horrible stuff about me - as a much younger person- to ‘prove them wrong’ and I have not had the reasonable response shown here so far. So thank you.

FermatsTheorem - seriously it's not gonna do any good, it's wasted effort. She has form. She is really not here to listen, just look what she has already said! Do you think she has really never come across women speaking about the atrocious way they have been victimised by trans activists and trans identified males? She is deliberately looking the other way. This forum is just fodder for a future 'essay'.

I love that there are women here that are more hopeful than me but you're gonna be disappointed.

I'll back off though, cos you'd like me to. I have a nasty taste in my mouth anyway.

Joan, I’m not going to respond to you because you’ve clearly no interest in arguing in good faith. Wish you the best nonetheless.

I don’t know what a ‘cool girl’ is supposed to mean. I do know that yesterday a man screamed at me in the street ‘you fucking feminist’...maybe because of my shaved head.

I’m not au fait with the girl guiding discussion happening here- but in general I DO trust individual organisations to do the necessary checks and decide on a case by case basis who is suitable to work with children, not just on the basis of gender but also criminal history, etc. There’s a reason we have CRB checks. (I was in the Woodcraft folk, though).

I’ve written a bit about gender and sport around the Caster Semenya case. It’s difficult because at that level of physical prowess there will already be an over representation of individuals with, eg, elevated testosterone levels- even if they have always been considered female from birth.

Will read the other threads now.

Oh I can't even hold in how fucking awful this woman is.

"Look, it is my sincere belief that many of the people in this conversation are acting in good faith"

I doubt many here care about your beliefs. Here's mine though, for your enjoyment - it is my Sincere Belief that men cannot become women, because women are people not outfits.

"I would be concerned myself if the things being discussed here- lesbians being forced into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, denial of the material basis of women’s oppression, attempts to prey on vulnerable women in safe spaces- were actually happening. As far as my research as well as personal experience has taken me, they simply aren’t.

This is sick. You know and we know you know that many many women have attested to these things. You know and we know there is abundant evidence of these things, even if you want to ignore women's voices, which you obviously do.

It is so completely gross how you can handwave away women's truths like this.

Possibly Joan but even if that is the case the best way to respond is to assume she's in good faith and engage politely with the actual substance of the argument.

As I see it, the substance of Laurie's response is "I'm sure you're well meaning people but you're catastrophising and imagining threats that aren't there, or if they are there, happen in such tiny numbers that they get 'lost in the noise' among much bigger threats which we run the risk of ignoring while focusing on this issue." For me, therefore, the response becomes one of pointing out areas where it really is an issue we should be worried about, and giving evidence to show that contrary to the claim that "that (almost) never happens", it actually does happen enough to worry about, or in such a way (sports) that it has an entirely disproportionate effect.

Probably the bits where men endlessly moan on about how MEAN all the mummies are.

Welcome Lplurker. Hopefully you are having a read of some of the threads on here to further your hope of learning more. Or perhaps to inform your next column.

I’d be interested to know if there’s anything you find that you agree with?

Laurie's the smartest kid in a smart school. She hasn't come here to learn, she has come here to get a bit of material for her next opinion piece.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3246322-A-Beginners-Guide-to-the-Transgender-Debate-A-Signpost-to-Useful-Mumsnet-Threads This is a good place to start.....

It's brave of you to come on here, must feel like coming into the lions' den, and I admire you for doing it (especially since MN gets painted - inaccurately - as some sort of version of Mary Whitehouse in jackboots by the transactivist bits of the twitter-sphere). But I second the comments above that you actually read some of the threads.

I'd also add the suggestion that you read the women in sport threads - Laurel Hubbard, Andrea Yearwood, transwomen playing contact sports like rugby and Aussie rules football, MMA - this is not imagination, this is being documented in the mainstream media (albeit in the context of a "yay, inclusion, isn't it great?"narrative from which the biological women who are being displaced are strangely absent). There was a very informative exchange on here between three female rugby players talking about what it feels like to be tackled by/scrum down against a transwoman who's a stone and a half heavier and eight inches taller, with all the advantages of testosterone (think of past testosterone as "off-season doping" - and that's before you get to the fact that there are no routine blood tests in amateur sports, and recent evidence suggests that testosterone suppressants only have a partial effect in about a third of biological males). Additionally there are issues like different skeletal structure, hugely greater VOmax.

Lplurker welcome. This is a great place for good, respectful, evidence based discussion.

Since you said you'd be interested in current debates here, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the Girl Guides trans policy. In particular, after Telford and Rotherham (and Savile and so on.... ) can we be sure that predators wouldn't falsely self-ID in order to access young girls in a vulnerable setting? What do you think about the secrecy it entails (not telling parents there could be biological males sharing with their girls : hiding this by claiming to be a single sex organisation : removing the right to consent from parents and girls).

Finally, why are the guides not implementing the easy solution of asking all parents whether they consent in principle to mixed sex accommodation via a standard form on joining / for each trip? I can't honestly think of an innocent explanation. More info here fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/

As far as my research as well as personal experience has taken me, they simply aren’t.

I don't think that anyone here is saying that trans women are a threat - but the difficulty we have is with the Stonewall definition of trans which includes cross-dressers and non-binary folk. By that definition I am trans. Most people alive are trans because we don't conform to the cliches expected of our sex. I have no issue with a gender dysphoric individual who intends to fully physically transition access to services on a case by case basis. However, rich men like Pippa Bunce are also now claiming these rights. That's not OK, surely you can see that?

Furthermore there are many concerns regarding safeguarding. You might feel confident that in this austerity government services would carry out the necessary risk assessments. Should attacks occur you may feel confident that the police force would investigate crimes properly. Maybe you think the legal system (currently on strike due to cuts to legal aid) would provide adequate restitution for victims. I hear the conviction rate for rape is really good.

Perhaps you think that youth services are properly financed and that social workers have the time or resources to protect their clients. The endemic rates of sexual abuse of young girls in schools might not concern you. Maybe you think that the Telford and Rochdale scandals have taught the statutory bodies responsible for the safety of children a valuable lesson. Maybe the prison service has the skills and resources to ensure the safety and rights of female prisoners are properly protected. Maybe you didn't hear about Sophie formerly Daniel Eastwood?

This is why I am concerned. It's a matter of trust. I don't trust men to understand the shit that women deal with on a day to day basis due to our biology. I don't trust the government. I don't trust the state. I'm not well connected I'm a normal working woman and my life is being systematically dismantled. There is no safety net anymore. There are no rights for workers.

I don't want to be fighting this battle. I'd much rather be fighting shoulder to shoulder with my Socialist 'brothers' in the Labour party but I can't. I don't understand why women meeting to discuss these concerns become TERF's. I don't understand why transwomen are women. I don't understand why nobody is speaking out when there are red flags going off left right and center. Maybe I am hateful. Maybe I am a bigot. I just don't understand why....

Laurie. I used to admire you. There's a thread here. Trans Widows Escape Committee. Give it a read. I've seen evidence of all the things you maintain aren't happening. Owen is a petulant misogynist. And you are the ultimate cool girl. Sorry we can't all be as cool as you.

You've never been a radical feminist Laurie. You are an opportunist.

I couldn't care less about your tearful friends and I'm sure they couldn't care less about me or mine. So fucking what, they cry, you cry, we all cry! Everybody hurts, blah blah bleurgh. That's the thing about being as privileged as you have been, you think that your feelings are more important than other people's lives. They're not.

I am a working class radical feminist a fair bit older than you and I'm telling you now - your actions and your words have been an appropriation and an insult to the people you've had the audacity to claim to represent. You stand with white supremacists and lesbophobic misogynists (yes Owen Jones) before you will stand with the people whose voice you deliberately stole. For that I despise you and everything you stand for.

I don't agree with everything Lisa says but she is right about you. And we are all right about Owen Jones.

Good luck in this place. The women here are for more intelligent than you and they aren't going to fall for your guilt trip bullshit. We are not your mums. Grow up.

Okay, well, first of all, you have me bang to rights on the self-googling. Sorry. I’ve just joined up in the hope of learning more about current debates on this side of the conversation.
This isn’t really about me, but FYI a lot of the links above are based on false information- Lisa Muggeridge in particular has had a strange obsession with me for years- we used to be friends. I can’t stop people saying untrue things but just so you know, that’s not the real me.

Anyway. Offred, thank you for being kind. And I’d speak up for Owen as well- he faces even more harassment from the right than i do and I think as a consequence he can sometime come across rather stiff in person but I assure you he’s a goodun.

Anyway.

Look, it is my sincere belief that many of the people in this conversation are acting in good faith, and I would be concerned myself if the things being discussed here- lesbians being forced into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, denial of the material basis of women’s oppression, attempts to prey on vulnerable women in safe spaces- were actually happening. As far as my research as well as personal experience has taken me, they simply aren’t. I see a lot of untruths being spread. And those untruths are doing real harm both to individuals and, I believe, to feminism as a whole.

I’ve been a radical feminist since I was eleven years old and will be one for as long as I live. Part of the vehemence of those tweets, to be honest, was that I see a movement I care about and have dedicated years of my life to turning on vulnerable people I care about.

I have friends on the phone in tears because of the things being said to them by women online in the name of feminism. I don’t want to go into details because I’m not here to shock but I have myself been shocked.

Anyway thay’s my POV here. I’d be happy to discuss more. L x