Laurie Penny's Mirror World

In other words, what works best for one's personal brand on social media?

I agree that Admiral's post was excellent and very powerful.

But she touched on something important, which is that liberal progressives who are interested in identity politics are really not interested in the plight of women in prison. These women are some of the most vulnerable people in society, often having been brought up in care, sexually abused, addicted to drugs, with mental health problems sometimes from minority ethnic backgrounds and not speaking English.

Why devote your energies to campaigning for the rights of those women, who have been oppressed by the harsh material reality of their existence, when identity politics is so much more appealing?

Yes I'd like to second that.

It seems that Admiral Roland’s well thought out and intelligent post did not appeal to the person who is the topic of this thread. It however did make an impression on me.

Thank you Admiral.

Just so that gendercritter's post isn't misunderstood, the point being made is not that trans people are predators, but that if self-ID opens the doors of woman's safe spaces to anyone who declares themselves to be a woman, then there is inevitably and unavoidably a risk that some predatory men, who do not have to be trans, will exploit this

Yes, nauticant

Not all men are predators but they offend at a far higher rate than woman and are responsible for almost all violent and sexual crime. That's all males, subjective female feelings doesn't change how likely a male is to offend. We also need to talk about autogynephila, for some men this is a sexual kink. We used to know this, we all knew the difference between a transsexual and a cross dresser. Autogynephilia does not belong in a girls changing room. Women and girls aren't on this earth to validate men, we are people, we deserve to retain our protections which we won.

Penny, if you're still reading, why do you feel now is the right time to end all sex based protections? Do you think women and girls have too many rights?

I am sure Penny is reading the threads and having a think....

She will realise that Lesbians aren't lying, or just being silly. Every time they see an article educating them, or well known vloggers explaining how to overcome their prejudices, they hear a deafening silence from their community when they should hear an uproar speaking against homophobia. Not speaking against lesbian phobia is endorsing it in my opinion, particularly when you are in the community.

A quick glance around the forum will also show that we aren't misinformed, we don't misunderstand and we haven't got the wrong end of the lady stick. We have educated ourselves about our rights and protections as they exist under law and we can see what happens in countries where laws are based on subjective feelings instead of objective facts.

Phew. Glad that cleared that one up. At least when she tweets in future she can state that we are informed and have genuine concerns which must be listened to.

It didn’t sound wanky! Just wanted to clarify/reassure regarding the basis of my engagement with this discussion!

Just so that gendercritter's post isn't misunderstood, the point being made is not that trans people are predators, but that if self-ID opens the doors of woman's safe spaces to anyone who declares themselves to be a woman, then there is inevitably and unavoidably a risk that some predatory men, who do not have to be trans, will exploit this. They won't have to make any sacrifices, they won't need to undergo hormone treatment or surgery, they won't need to wait till their hair grows long, they won't need to buy any women's clothes. They won't even need to shave.

In a self-ID world, women will have no power to seek expulsion of these men unless there has been a sexual or a violent assault.

But more than this, even if assaults are few and far between, it will change the culture. Women will feel that their hands are tied against being able to enforce their boundaries. Women will perceive their safe spaces as being less safe than they were.

Women's concerns in this matter are not cured by hearing declarations that "But all of the trans people I've met are lovely!" It is not about there being many trans people in the world who wouldn't hurt a fly.

Offred - sorry if I sounded wanky. I'm like Joan in that Laurie sets my teeth on edge so badly that I become intemperate.

And that in this context, as you see trans women as men, it seems like men are barging in and demanding access to what little there is left for women

Also agree that, no, that is not it!!

It is not about men taking our inadequate share of the pie.

It is about the fact that men are responsible for 98% of violent crime, that women are physically vulnerable and oppressed purely on the basis of their sex and that men pretty much rape with impunity in our so-called modern society.

It is about keeping some spaces women only, for our safety and dignity and comfort. It is about protecting the vulnerable.

Trans women should have their own spaces if they don't wish to share with men.

Applauds SeahorsesAREhorses

"Hi Penny, your response to the question regarding Maria's beating reminds me of when Trump talked about folk being bad on "both sides" after a woman was killed. In this instance a woman was beaten, there are no women beating up trans activists."

for your poor daughter. It's a fucking nightmare for young girls now, I feel so sorry for them She is lucky to have a mighty mother who will do everything to let her see how wonderful she is, as she is. and for you

I never engage with discussions with the aim of converting to my point of view Lang. I like the opportunity to discuss and the discussion itself.

"It seems like there’s also a very real fear here that trans rights will be used as a lever to deny sex- and gender- based provisions and protections. "

She writes that muddled up sentence?

If you have no idea the change from sex to gender is intentionally eliminating sex based exemptions and definitions what does she actually know about? That Grayson Perry is an artist?

She's fluff.

@FermatsTheorem
No you don't - I completely respect that you wanted to try and dialogue with another woman and see where she was coming from and I stepped out partly because I didn't want to get in the way of that and partly because Penny really sparks so much anger in me, she has been a willing player and figurehead for so much damage.

I knew you would be disappointed but I don't hold it against you for trying.

Peace.

suitably dependent on the largesse of their left-wing betters

She identifies as our representation, dontchaknow. We plebs aren't allowed opinions of our own. It's like the Victorians improving the poor.

@JoanSummers I owe you an apology. I thought we could maybe make LP look like the fool she is by politely engaging and showing her utter lack of coherent arguments. But you are right, she is only here to troll.

She intends to use a mixture of patronising us, attempting to guilt trip us into being nice little women, suitably dependent on the largesse of their left-wing betters for handouts (with the veiled threat that those handouts will disappear in perpetuity if we don't support left-wing group think in everything), appeal to our emotions, and scatter the usual mixture of disinformation, and as someone said upthread, almost Trump-like and entirely false rhetoric like "both sides are as bad as each other.

LP - you are a complete fucking disgrace to the journalistic profession. I'd take a muck-raker for the Sun over you any day.

Offred - Laurie's entire identity (and career) depends upon her wilfully failing to understand the actual intersectionality between class and sex based structural inequalities. Unless Laurie chooses the individualist social constructionist debasement of Crenshaw's work, she - a privately educated graduate of Oxbridge and Harvard - has no basis to claim a marginalised identity any more than her equally class privileged buddies Shon and Munroe do.

She knows this. You know this. Shon and Munroe know this. Most people reading this thread know this. Which is why Laurie has had, has, and will always have, cloth ears to everything you are saying.

If you have been lucky enough in your life to have never found yourself in the position where your life has actually depended on the existence of these rights then I can see why you would come to the conclusion women speaking about these things are being mean to another vulnerable group. I can see why you’d think women are being emotional about giving things up and that it was necessary to be ‘more objective’.

That’s not what is going on.

Many women here have been in the position where frequently, from childhood, our lives have literally depended on these rights in ways you cannot fathom, even though you will have been subjected to many appalling experiences because of sexism.

We can acknowledge these differences and still fight patriarchy. I passionately believe that the campaign against trans inclusion damages feminism, and thereby all women. I know we’re never going to agree on all of this but I sincerely hope that some of us at least can hang on to what we have in common and give each other the benefit of the doubt.

There is no ‘campaign against trans inclusion’. Not from radical feminists anyway, maybe the American Christian right wing I don’t know...

There are some groups like woman’s place who are asking for women to be included in discussions about sex based rights and changes to services that women use. That’s all. Why do women not get to be consulted about how changing these things will affect them? How it is already affecting them?

The trans lobby is not asking for us to find common ground. It is asking that the concept of biological sex (the source of oppression of women) is erased from law and that gender identity (an issue only trans people would benefit from) replaces it. This is the fundamental issue and biological women and trans people have no common cause there because trans identity is founded based on the same concepts which are used to oppress biological women; that identity is gendered.

There will never be common ground as long as the trans lobby is lobbying for that. It is directly against the interests of biological women.

I think absolutely everyone, no matter how strongly they feel about trans ideology and what it is based on, fundamentally supports protection, support, rights, freedom from discrimination etc etc for trans people but this cannot be at the expense of sex based rights for women which is what is currently being demanded.

What I’m hearing is that women here have been utterly shat on by this government, by cuts, by rising sexism in society and the stripping of vital welfare and institutional support. And that in this context, as you see trans women as men, it seems like men are barging in and demanding access to what little there is left for women.

No, not right. It’s not an emotional argument regarding scarce resources and who should have them and it’s not created by the cuts either.

It’s about legal concepts and a life, from birth, being shat on in various ways because of sex based oppressions with what really is a bare minimum of rights which protect women based on biology. Those rights are already woefully inadequate.

The cuts are affecting how this oppression is felt by women (magnifying it) but it has always been there. It is in fact why we are even being affected by the cuts so badly, because we are more reliant on services in the first place due to the structural sexism. We don’t want to be cycling between dependency on men and the state all our lives, unfortunately that’s the reality. It is why these changes are so important though.

The fact women have these material realities is because of sex based oppression, not because of the way we identify as individual humans.

It’s about what the trans lobby is lobbying for; an extension of the current GRA which currently replaces sex with gender identity in law in certain circumstances (a legal fiction).

It may not be the intention of those lobbying for the changes but it does have the effect in law of erasing sex based oppression and sex based legal protections from law. It replaces what we are with what others think they are. In the context of the cuts the negative effects will be magnified for women and for transsexuals.

(Coming back in tentatively)

When a feminist starts making excuses

This would only be a surprise if Penny actually was a feminist. Just because someone self identifies as something doesn't mean they are that thing. Penny also identifies as a radical feminist and is clearly not one. She identifies men as women and lesbians, too.

I don't accept Penny is a feminist because I observe her actions, her statements, who she supports and listens to. None of it is woman centred. She consistently argues in opposition to feminists, she chums with and aligns herself with misogynists, and she dismisses, denies and patronises women's experiences.

If you see her for the anti feminist activist her actions reveal herself to be, it is no longer a surprise how she behaves.

This isn't good, this has come from the top down and is being spoon fed to our kids. We should be fighting gender stereotypes, instead we are teaching kids to use them to measure whether they are girl enough.

This makes me sick, this is AGPs creating a pipeline.

"your response to the question regarding Maria's beating reminds me of when Trump talked about folk being bad on "both sides" after a woman was killed. In this instance a woman was beaten, there are no women beating up trans activists."

Exactly. When a feminist starts making excuses for two young men physically attacking a 60 year old woman without provocation, you do start to wonder at the mental gymnastics that are required.

Hi Penny, your response to the question regarding Maria's beating reminds me of when Trump talked about folk being bad on "both sides" after a woman was killed. In this instance a woman was beaten, there are no women beating up trans activists.

What are your thoughts on the rapid rise in young girls opting out of girlhood, so many autistic or young lesbians. I fear we are enforcing stereotypes and there is no room for feminine boys or masculine girls.

My daughter likes girls, she is now half way to declaring she is a boy as it's easier than being a masculine girl. There really is no room left for gender non conformity. The doctors are following an affirmation only approach and Stonewall does not have women or girls backs.

There are no spaces left for young lesbians and the gender roles are policed, increasingly by kids themselves. Lesbians are not cool, trans boys are celebrated.

This isn't good, this has come from the top down and is being spoon fed to our kids. We should be fighting gender stereotypes, instead we are teaching kids to use them to measure whether they are girl enough.

This is not my feminism. My feminism challenges sexism and seeks to liberate females from the oppression they face because they were born female. I centre women and girls because some bugger has to.

Women is what you are, not who you are.