Laurie Penny's Mirror World

This has been posted elsewhere on here but it is a good explanation of the philosophy.

Hi @Lplurker. Please could you explain why male violence towards other men, the LGBT community and women is women's job to fix? Why women have to sacrifice the small corners of society they have carved out to feel safe in?

You don't smash the patriarchy by removing women's right to single sex spaces. By doing this you serve and enforce the patriarchy.

Great post Joan

I was surprised at LP's comments - she has gone down in my estimation - not giving deference to the amazing women's wisdom on here but choosing to repeat some mantra about men being women smacks of cult like behaviour

I fear for her wellbeing as a woman to a woman

she's young, no kids, and hasn't ever had to face deprivation by the sounds of it - so no lived experience of systemic subjugation and choices limited - but has been targeted by horrendous trolling - that I wouldn't wish on anyone -

Irrespective its disappointing to see how totally unaware and partially deaf some are - particularly those who describe themselves as feminists - it's a sad day when they prefer to believe some claptrap from men and dismiss rather than embrace the collective wisdom of their own sex.

Oh come on Laurie! Come back! Since you're probably reading anyway, I recommend a look at the recent thread about Universal Credit. Some actual intersectionality discussed on it.

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. One problem she faces is that if she spins this thread as "mumsnet is full of transphobes" it might cause some people to come over, have a read through, and form their own opinions.

People, especially women, forming their own opinions! Whatever next!

She might spin it her own way, given the Mirror World that she lives in as the title of the thread acknowledges.

The gig looked like a pushover. Sign up to mumsnet, tell the mums what to think, verbally slap a few of them around the head if necessary, then head off elsewhere to make more people woke.

Who could have known that the people on mumsnet would know more than teacher and would not be shy to show up teacher's ignorance?

There's a lot of bourgeois LARPing going on in the liberal left world, isn't there?

So did Laurie ever come back? Sorry, I just don't have the patience to engage with a posh kid LARPing as a socialist.

I don't think she can.

It would be lovely if penny came back and engaged with the points made.

Absolutely Datun

People are catching up on this and it takes that kind of post to help people break it down.

It's helped me to be able to talk to other women IRL for the first time too. So thank you

JoanSummers

Excellent post. From you and others. Please do not worry about being succinct when you are analysing language, as well as content. There is no other way to do it other than step-by-step.

And, as always, remember the lurkers. Remember exactly how many people are reading this. The people writing here are a fraction of the number of people accessing it.

There so many times when women react to language and tone and are berated for it, because the poster fondly imagines their attitide isn't startlingly apparent or is somehow well disguised.

I, for one, was both interested in, and appreciative of, your analysis there.

"Apparently gender-crit women are a cult who don't tolerate dissent."

Ahahahaahahahahahahaha the projection.

It's as if everything the other side points out about them, they turn around. Like little kids.

• "You're stupid"
• "No you are"
• "No you

Q Is it inaccurate to say that the surgical removal of a penis = castration?

It’s a shame that there isn’t even the slightest chance of Laurie ever coming back to answer Joan’s post because I would be very interested in the response.

Good post Joan

I have never seen her do that to males who id as trans btw. She is usually apologetic with them rather than demanding, which is revealing.

Yes.

Thank you, I was worried it was far too long (I have a problem with being succinct I know!)

I just find it difficult to address so much gaslighting and avoidance without going through it step by step.

Women here have done really good work pinpointing flaws and gaps in what Penny is and is not saying, and mostly avoided insulting her, which is a real feat in the circumstances. I know that in more male dominated spaces she has not been treated as carefully. Which makes it all the more grim that she has several times compared women here to men elsewhere and tried to guilt trip the female into being more maternal and gentle.

I have never seen her do that to males who id as trans btw. She is usually apologetic with them rather than demanding, which is revealing.

Excellent job unpacking that Joan.

Transactivists proudly show their violence for all the world to see - look at the San Francisco library exhibition that featured "blood stained" shirts, promotion of VAWG and axes and baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire.

To say this is equivalent to refusing to use preferred pronouns is absurd and disingenuous. It reminds me of police telling women that "it takes two to start a fight" when called to DV scenes because obviously our role as women is to be compliant and make ourselves smaller to avoid violence. Everyone who's been there knows there's no way it works - abusers never stop pushing the boundaries.

AFA = anti-feminist activist, or trans activist if you prefer

Sorry for length to everyone else. You could literally do this with everything she says. She speaks like the slimiest politician.

I’ve read court transcripts from the Hyde Park incident
Assault, not incident. I'm sure Maria M could talk you through the several videos of the assault if you wanted, no need to rely on court transcript alone, assuming women's accounts of their experiences of male violence matter to you?

I believe that there is a lot of simmering tension that’s really pretty disturbing
Perhaps you didn't understand the court transcript? Here is a summary:

• women arranged to meet to talk about sex and gender
• trans activists openly organised to have the meeting shut down, and "fuck up some terfs"
• the women met at Speakers Corner and trans activists arrived, shouted at the women, harassed some of them (you can see in the videos the AFA's getting right in women's faces), and three AFAs violently attacked Maria M.

What I don’t believe is that trans activists are any more or less violent than any other group of activists
The assault on Maria M. alone makes it clear that trans activists are more violent than feminist activists. I never see feminist activists arranging to "fuck up some trans activists".
Q Would you agree that trans activists are clearly more violent than feminist activists?
Q Would you agree that trans activists are more violent than the women who are organising meetings to discuss sex and gender all over the UK?

One every side of this issue there are people who feel under attack, who are lashing out, who are finding it hard to remember one another’s humanity
This sounds a lot like victim blaming.
Q Would you agree there is a difference between feeling under attack and actually being attacked?
Q Do you think lashing out is an appropriate way to describe three young adults (all male to my knowledge) physically attacking a 60 year old woman?

There have been some profoundly ugly things said, including by ‘gender critical’ people.
Like what? Give some examples of profoundly ugly things said by gender critical people so we can see what you mean. Btw why are you using inverted commas round gender critical?

I don’t think what Posie Parker said, for example, is anything but hateful.
Posie Parker stated a fact about the extreme actions of Susie Green towards SG's own gender non-conforming child, actions which are illegal in this country. The extreme and illegal nature of SG's beliefs and actions towards her own GNC child should be scrutinised if she is going to be accepted as an authority on how all GNC children are treated.
Q Do you believe it should be legal for parents to book in their 15 year old male gender non-conforming children for an elective surgery which includes castration?
Q Do you believe that it should be illegal for people to discuss this?
Q Do you really think that it is hateful for people to discuss this?

it’s not my place to tell anyone else how to do non-violent direct action.
So then you agree that it is women's right to organise meetings where we can discuss sex and gender, and the impact of gender legislation and rules on our lives?

I'm finding it hard to see how in your view it is "not your place" to comment on other people's non-violent direct action and at the same time you believe it is "hateful" for feminists to speak about real events in frank but accurate language. Can you explain how you can hold both these thoughts at once?

I don't imagine you'll answer this but it helps me to read your words closely and wonder why you chose the ones you did. For a writer you are incredibly unaware of how revealing your words are about who you are.

The other big vulnerable group of women here - those whose voices are never heard and who have no social power or influence - are women on locked mental health wards.

Yes.

But she touched on something important, which is that liberal progressives who are interested in identity politics are really not interested in the plight of women in prison.

The other big vulnerable group of women here - those whose voices are never heard and who have no social power or influence - are women on locked mental health wards.