Finally, a balanced overview article in the Guardian...

As usual, Debbie H hit the nail on the head and named the issue.

"I don’t think quite on the fringes of feminism, but yes in that I’ve seen men like Jordan Peterson getting quoted and linked to before."

Jordan Peterson is not "extremely right wing" ffs

AngryAttackKittens

I do... nuanced conversations can't be had when the Twitter juggernaut is still so powerful and out of control!

Do you get the feeling there's stuff going on behind the scenes that nobody's prepared to fully say in public?

I suspect there are a lot of private conversations going on among people who're waiting to see how the public mood goes before sticking their head over the parapet. Which as vexing as that is in some cases, we've all seen what happens to women who do, so it's the men who won't who deserve the bulk of the criticism.

Peterson is definitely MRA-adjacent even if he isn't quite one himself. He's got some awfully regressive ideas about how men and women should relate to each other.

This represents a massive shift in tone from this writer, she's been handwavingly dismissive of women's concerns about this in the past. If we're not quite at the tipping point yet we're getting close.

Yes. It's a huge change from Gaby. Do you get the feeling there's stuff going on behind the scenes that nobody's prepared to fully say in public? I think A Woman's Place is having an effect.

Gay as a gender really is baffling but at the same time maybe a clue as to how tied up gender identity and sex as in shagging rather than biology is in the eyes of a lot of people? You see it in the assumption that trans women are all attracted to men that a lot of people make too.

Yeah, he’s thinking of converting to Orthodox apparently.

This is also the Jordan Peterson who warned women that if we try to ‘usurp’ men they would rebel and we would have to enslave them, which sounds like a hassle honestly but I’ve added it to the fridge To-Do list.

I really appreciated this article too and thought it was a fair representation of both my own views and those I see on the other side of the fence; so whilst not perfect (gay, a gender?) as CircleSquare says, well balanced.

Perhaps there is indeed some common ground just over the horizon.

I heard Jordan Peters on ABC radio talking about his ecclesiastical lectures. He's very religious.

The bulk of the psychology community is putting as much distance as possible between itself and Jordan Peterson. Because he's mental and dangerous

I think Jordan Peterson describes himself as left wing?

Either way, he is a qualified psychologists, so he does understand that there is little difference between male and small brains.

I thought it was quite well balanced.I do although hate the notion that being gay is a gender identity.

I have never seen that before and can't see how that works. How is being gay a gender?

Is that just a journalist's misunderstanding?

Just because you had a shitty time as a boy and a man, and experienced homophobia, that doesn't mean all your male privilege is negated.

There are vulnerable individuals who are transwomen and vulnerable individuals who are women. There are some very different reasons for the vulnerabilities, as illustrated here.

It doesn't help either group to address and tackle these if we pretend both groups are exactly the same.

Transwomen are men who want to live their life as women. They are not actually women, and that's ok. We don't need to scream it in their face all the time but we do need to recognise, categorise and name this in law and policy.

Yes definitely the best I've seen. And the article refutes much that Barker has said before, so this will hopefully acts as an education for the TRAs, as well as fence sitters.

Definitely some major points overlooked, the article equated the 'abuse' of women saying that someone with a penis is male to TRAs calls for and actual violence against women which feeds into the 'literal violence' nonsense, and no mention of sport.

This represents a massive shift in tone from this writer, she's been handwavingly dismissive of women's concerns about this in the past. If we're not quite at the tipping point yet we're getting close.

I was very pleased to read this article today, hopefully it will be shared widely.

Yes! I've just read it and was pleased to see an article which neatly summarises most of the debate I thought, from my perspective.

And it's especially nice to be able to come on here and discuss it openly, and understand a bit more, and read important points that had passed me by, like the conflation of gender identity and sexuality.
Thanks Guardian and Mumsnet!

bump

53rd, I thought of that yesterday when I saw misogynist-trainee-GP-bloke say "yeah its great to have tw on aws"...

Agreed, men police gender boundaries strongly and sometimes violently. I do wish men were a bit more motivated to get their own house in order on this, and that all those men who think they're progressive and beyond it but are gleefully yelling at women for not being more 'inclusive' maybe did a bit of self-reflection. "We're so progressive, we're prepared to let anyone into your category of Non-Men! Obviously we can't accept them as men, that would be ridiculous. But you should all budge up!"

There was a great Glosswitch quote on that - something like "ordering women to be inclusive is not 'being inclusive', in the same way that ordering women to do the washing up is not 'doing the washing up'."

I thought it was quite well balanced.
I do although hate the notion that being gay is a gender identity.

My sexuality does not put me on a bloody gender spectrum. This is dangerous.

Annie - yes, it's partly homophobia, but it's also contempt for men who don't conform to gender norms. Straight men who don't conform suffer badly from male bullying too. (And life as a woman who doesn't conform with gender norms can be hard too, as many on this board will know.) We should stand with LGBT campaigners (the saner ones - which is most of them, actually) on this issue.

Stonewalls director of campaigns name is Twocock!!

This was my favourite bit...
"...Sophie Walker, leader of the Women’s Equality Party, who was torn apart over her party’s trans-inclusive stance in one notable Mumsnet webchat"

I think that's the first time the WEP problems have made MSM news?

It was a good article on the whole, but to me it fell down at the end and overall with ultimately emphasis on trans rather than women’s experience. Suggesting that solutions like “sealed cubicles, locks and other design features may go a long way to avoid any anticipated friction” do nothing to resolve tension over erasure and the demise of women-only spaces. Reducing protected spaces to the level of a toilet cubicle is really not good enough.