Has anyone else just discovered that they are a RadFem?

well maybe radical feminists should have 'employed' violent TRAs a long time ago to get feminism kick-started? Seems that they have converted many to our ranks!

Just joking obviously. Not only do they want to shut us up, they are prepared to back that up with some good ol' male violence to make good on the 'promise'.

This is just the latest wave in the backlash against Second Wave Feminism - the movement that has given you most of the rights you probably take for granted - having a bank account or loan in your name; better pay (instead of 10-50% of the male wage, it is now 70-80%, still some resistance, even though illegal); abortion and contraception access; DV shelters and rape crisis support; opening up wider career paths; better outcomes for rape trials (even though reversing more recently); rape within marriage (took until the early 90s to actually become illegal).

The best piece of advice I can give you, is that women's rights are never solid. We have to constantly fight for them, or they get reversed (look at abortion in the US). Or even just look at the funding gutting in the UK for Women's Aid and Rape Crisis.

Warriors like thebewilderness and Dittany have been keeping the fight going all these years, waiting for the 'reinforcements', the mass awakening of women to see the reality of the world they really live in.

TL;DR Men don't want us to have nice things.

So when commenters like esk1mo lament how we are not 'supporting effeminate men' more, seriously, we get bruised foreheads from all the headdesking.

I think the fear and restrictions being placed on discussing things linked to this issue has shocked me. And then made me cross.

Now gender critical AF.
YY as others have experienced- sex based reality and discrimination set in hard when I was trying to get pregnant, pregnant and with small babies and kids.
The penalty i’ve paid at work for that has made me see gender for the weaponised mass harm that it is.
At work sharing women’s toilets of standard design with male-bodied trans-identifying people and not being able to discuss it for fear of repercussions had made me see the writing on the wall and the very scary chilling effect on free speech that the TRAs have had.
I’m very very grateful for MN as a place to be able to think about all this and help me to articulate it.

i understand supporting womens rights but i also would still want to support the rights of all humans and that inevitably includes men. maybe that means im not a radfem then.

What rights do you think men are entitled to that they do not have?

No, but I've been here since forever.

But I don't believe that men are always the oppressor, put simply - "do tramps have male privilege?

Just yesterday I was in a massive (many hundreds) homeless shelter in North America. Vast male area including mats on the floor for hundreds of sleepers and bunk style sleeping for some without doors. The women had a much smaller area with doors. Now that looks like the men are worse off, they have no doors and therefore less privacy. The staff have even had to cut the bottom of the door off the showers and toilets in the male area. But why did this happen? What happens when there's no female area with privacy? The fact is that about 100% of the women there have dealt with sexual violence from men. And would continue to if the men were allowed access. The women have far less 'access' to the common space. Far less. You see very little of them in the cafeteria or outside. They have to guard their safety.

What I found really interesting is that the female area has a table, chair, decorations, pretty things. I asked what had happened and the staff member told me they had done it all themselves with donated things. The men are free to do the same but don't.

So even 'tramps' (although I would never use that word) who are male have power and privilege and women are trying to make the environment a little nicer and better for themselves and others.

If feminine men don't think they're women then I think you'd struggle to find a radfem who had any issues with them. We generally support gender non-conformity on the basis that gender is socialized, not innate, and should be dismantled. Drag is a different thing, and you'll find a variety of opinions on that.

well, as opposed to rejected by radfems. in general terms, do radfems have negative opinions or connotations with men like that? or are they viewed as harmless

i personally am not 100% supportive of men taking on feminine appearances or traits. i feel like its an exaggerated presentation of being a “woman” and using women as a costume for attention or to stand out.

i dont hate people like that. id treat them like i treat anyone else, but in my head im not 100% accepting of it.

What do you mean by "accepted"? That might help clarify. I was a teenage goth so I've known men who wear floaty pretty clothes and makeup most of my life, and am fine with them. If they think that makes them women than we have a problem, if they know that they're men with an unconventional sense of aesthetics that's 100% OK with me.

I've always been a feminist but i didnt know there were different types until recently

thebewilderness maybe support was
the wrong word. im just trying to understand the opinion of radfems on men who are the way i described but dont claim to be women. as i understand it, radfems would rather that make up, dresses, soft speaking etc is not associated with a gender, as those things dont make you a woman. are these men still judged the same as trans men? or are they “accepted”? are non-binaries accepted? or looked at the same as trans men

i understand supporting womens rights but i also would still want to support the rights of all humans and that inevitably includes men. maybe that means im not a radfem then.

I mean, if men prefer to speak softly and look pretty that's fine with me, but it doesn't make them any more female than the loud macho ugly ones, though it may make them more pleasant to be around. If a man has his penis and testicles removed it makes him a eunuch, not a woman.

1) if someone asked me, how do i know i am a woman? my answer would be because i have a vagina and breasts. is this..correct thinking?
It's not a question any woman should have to think about. Let alone "correctly".

2) i was watching Genderquake on ch4 and there were transgender men who had fully had surgery, and there were men who hadn’t had surgery but wore make up, were effeminate, soft speaking but didn’t identify as male or female. do radfems support the former transgender male but not the latter? or is the latter acceptable because he isnt claiming to be a woman?

Rad fems support women. Not loads of different types of men who speak softly or have an identity crisis or don't have an identity crisis or who have plastic surgery or not.

esk1mo
im confused as to radfem stance on sex and gender?

Sex is an immutable material realty.
Gender is a bullshit construct designed by society to make women perform prettiness and avoid any important thinkings and doings.

do radfems support the former transgender male but not the latter? or is the latter acceptable because he isnt claiming to be a woman?

Why would feminists be tasked to support any men?
The focus of Feminism is women's rights.
We are currently in a battle with men who are trying to roll back women's rights even further than they have already been under the guise of equality for transgender identified males.

Hmmm esk1mo

You will find as you read more that feminists do not speak with one voice. I personally wouldn’t say anything was “correct thinking” you just think what you think!

If you asked me how do I know I am a woman? I just am. I don’t “feel like” a woman. I just am. You don’t have to justify why you’re a woman. In fact lots of times “I’m a woman because I have boobs and a fanny” leads to “OMG you’re so transphobic what about women who have had mastectomies it hysterectomies, are they not woman?” When obviously, they are. This is why we keep asking trans identified people what it is to “feel like” a woman. Because most of us can’t articulate that, we just are.

2. it’s late and I’m sure this won’t be as coherent as I would like but basically I don’t support trans people who are absolute shitheads, demanding access to spaces they have no right to be in purely for the purpose of validation. Some things need to be separated by biological sex, gender has fuck all to do with it. It is ok to have women only spaces. We are not obliged to share our every waking moment with men.

I can’t succinctly sum up the rest of the points because I’m tired sorry. Look for the inimitable @Datun’s posts for clear, well reasoned thinking. Otherwise read, learn, question and form your own opinion. You won’t find anyone here who wants to police your thoughts - even if they don’t agree with you. The problem is when people’s beliefs start to become enshrined in bad law which doesn’t consider the effect on other vulnerable groups.

I think I've always been a radfem just didn't have a label for all my views, didn't need to express them until I heard about self ID
First realised the difference between sex and gender when reading a text book at school.
I think people don't like using the word sex because well its the word sex they get embarrassed and use the gender.
Does anyone think labours not so well results in local elections had anything to do with not as many women voting for them due to policy on self ID, transgender women being allowed to get positions previously only open to biological women

I've always considered myself a feminist (although never understood enough to define myself into a category) I.e. Pro-women's rights, choice, things like that. I've always thought of myself as left wing and voted Labour.
But, it's been a shock to me to realise that my core beliefs do effectively make me a radical feminist. I am appalled that the path (I thought) to a fairer, less judgemental world seems to have gone askew. Instead of people accepting themselves and others in all their manifestations of sexuality and appearances, it seems to me that we have lots and lots of labels for people but fewer choices. Having grown up with the attitude that being a woman should not limit your aspirations, to now have a climate where gendered behaviour (what you wear, how you look) influences how you should define yourself seems to turn that on it's head.

@Badgerthebodger thank you so much, im on page 2 and things are starting to make sense.

i have 2 questions, if I may:

1. if someone asked me, how do i know i am a woman? my answer would be because i have a vagina and breasts. is this..correct thinking?

2. i was watching Genderquake on ch4 and there were transgender men who had fully had surgery, and there were men who hadn’t had surgery but wore make up, were effeminate, soft speaking but didn’t identify as male or female. do radfems support the former transgender male but not the latter? or is the latter acceptable because he isnt claiming to be a woman?

or is it wrong to adopt the positives of femininity and being a woman but remaining male so that you still hold your male privelages?

I'm sure the liberal feminists of that time would have been horrified at the sexual commodification of women. They weren't handmaidens and their views were logical and reasonable.

We need to reach out to young liberal feminists. I'm 35 and I am technically a millennial but I don't understand where this younger feminism is coming from. It's so anti-woman that I am really really concerned for the women in this movement. We need to reach out to them. It's really important. We're their elders and they need us #WomanPower

So many interesting contributions on this thread.

@esk1mo

This was a great “beginners” thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Anything you’re not sure of just ask lots of knowledgeable posters who will help you out

I only became aware of what was going on 6 months ago, oddly enough through complaining about GGreer being no platformed on a fb Magic grandad forum, posting a Janice Raymond link and getting chucked out! Thats was how I found out about Lilly attacking Anne R. and self id. And the menz take over, up to that point I'd supported transpeople as all people deserve human rights and that they were part of the LGB. Hadn't questioned it.
I was part of the women's liberation movement 50 years ago involved in actions that resulted in arrests. There were liberal feminists from the beginning (as well as separatists I wasn't part of their group but I studied what they wrote and considered them another branch of the movement). They were always criticised by radical feminists but nobody would not have considered them anti-feminists. They were the ones who wanted careers and to work the institutions it was more a difference of approach. I'm sure the liberal feminists of that time would have been horrified at the sexual commodification of women. They weren't handmaidens and their views were logical and reasonable.
I feel frightened more than anything. Especially being old. The young are being encouraged to blame their economic difficulties and brexit on the old. Not until we die will they be able to realise their dreams.
I'm an introvert and hate talking about myself. But I've really enjoyed this thread and wanted to contribute.

Yes, since just before last Christmas.

Looked up up something to do with feminism on Google, and Mumsnet Feminism Chat came up in the top three results,

So, clicked, started reading, kept on reading, kept on reading, kept on reading, kept on reading, etc.!

to all posters who have inspired me. I love the way I feel far more confident in being a woman, over the past few months, now that I'm a regular daily reader.

I was a liberal feminist until I encountered the word TERF. Embarrassingly I didn't really know what radical feminism was at that point (other than it involved being angry a lot), but I started to pay a bit more attention and the more I found out, the more I realised I was starting to question liberal ideology. And even though I lack the knowledge and theory to comfortably identify as radfem I find in a lot of cases I'm much more interested in what radical feminists have to stay on a topic.