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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"I feel like a woman"

190 replies

pearsapplesbananas · 09/05/2018 07:01

I am a transgender woman. The following doesn't in any way pretend to be a universal account of all trans women's experiences and thoughts, just mine.

When I say "I feel like a woman" to somebody, what I mean is:

I wish I was born in a female body. I wish I had a female reproductive system, and that I could carry a child. Every time I look into the mirror, I want to smash my face against it. Every time I look at a "normal" family, my heart sinks, because I will likely never get to have that. Hormones make me feel less bad. Besides easing my physical dysphoria, they have also important psychological effects (like some women experience with their cycles). They are a tool that helps me deal with my… bad luck at birth.

But I'm slowly starting to empower myself. Coming out of this endless spiral of self-disgust and self-pity. I might be wrong but, from what I read, it seems like there is a discussion framed as a dichotomy: that giving me a decent chance to life is a direct attack on women's rights. Well, I wouldn't see how, and of course, I wouldn't want it to be.

As a consequence, both sides of the discussion attack each other. Often, with what I consider cruelty, inhumanity and viciousness, lacking the most basic empathy. It's as if we all left our humanity at home, for our families and loved ones, and were fighting as animals against each other.

I think both sides could benefit from working together, we have many things to teach one another and many fights in common. For example, better healthcare. I read a post on this forum, about the access to laser by women with PCOS. In all honesty, I don't think a single transgender woman would oppose this. In fact, it's something that I (and many others) would advocate for. Similarly, there are many other topics framed as dichotomies that would more likely be solved if they weren't.

The only people benefiting from all this is people who regard women and transgender people as lesser than.

OP posts:
IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 10/05/2018 05:42

Terfulike

I agree

If you were new to MN and read only one post, I think this might be the one to make you understand

Thanks to pearsapplesbananas for starting it...

GorgonLondon · 10/05/2018 03:36

Good old Charles Dodgson. Nailed it.

thebewilderness · 10/05/2018 02:53

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Terfulike · 10/05/2018 02:40

I've just read read this entire thread from start to finish and it was amazing!

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/05/2018 01:35

There have been a LOT of 'both sides are as bad as each other, feminists should be nicer' posts these past few weeks. Is this the new angle?

Many moons ago, when feminists were organizing anti-rape campaigns at my university and I got involved, my male flatmate and another bloke in a tutorial group took very against it. I got called names (well, "lesbian" which TBF I didn't think was offensive but they did) and also told I was shrill, and angry and nasty and all the other things men say to women to make them shut up. It hasn't changed one little bit in decades.

Women should be nicer and men can ignore us.

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 09/05/2018 22:18

I don't think anyone here is opposed to you having a decent life. No one here is opposed to you having a glorious and joyful life! What we are opposed to is the idea that you must 'become a woman' to get that. Because you can't. They only way for you to become any sort of woman is to change what 'woman' means so much that it no longer describes or applies to women. Obviously, that would not be not OK and would be an attack on women's rights. I am a woman. You are a transwoman. We are both humans equally deserving of peace, dignity and respect

Hear hear Bloodmagic

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 09/05/2018 22:17

I hope you can take this on board applesandpears. Much of what people are saying is challenging and then revelatory to women, let alone someone like you.

Please don't think that because we care most about ourselves we don't care about others - telling us that is just throwing back in our faces something that is drummed into us from a very young age. As such it come over as really really manipulative

thebewilderness · 09/05/2018 19:47

Transgender identified males and others who share their beliefs continue to come to the Women's Rights section of Mumsnet to politely request that women set themselves on fire to keep men warm.

When we say no they assume it is the beginning of the negotiation.
Here's me saying no, again, and thank you very much for asking instead of telling. However, I feel very strongly that people who refuse to take no for an answer, for whatever reason, are not safe to be around.

thebewilderness · 09/05/2018 19:35

I might be wrong but, from what I read, it seems like there is a discussion framed as a dichotomy: that giving me a decent chance to life is a direct attack on women's rights. Well, I wouldn't see how, and of course, I wouldn't want it to be.

You are wrong.

Gender dysphoria is the only mental illness where the sufferers are trying to pass laws requiring all citizens share their beliefs, or pretend to.
Framing this as your "decent chance to life" is a clear indication that you do see how you are wrong.

leggere · 09/05/2018 19:20

Pears didn't join in!?

MrGHardy · 09/05/2018 18:48

I know I am late to the discussion but I don't have motivation to read it all now, so I will just ask and if it's a rehash someone just please copy paste the answer.

As awful as your situation sounds a) It sounds like you have actual dysphoria, something self ID would not require and b) do you think this feeling makes you a woman? Do you think 'woman' or 'man' for that matter, are just 'feelings' and biology is irrelevant?

And sorry but you can't expect others to validate your feeling of womanhood just because they (should) feel sorry for you. Like a little child crying until it gets what it wants.

CharlieParley · 09/05/2018 18:44

That was just beautiful Bloodmagic, thank you Star

Opheliah · 09/05/2018 17:37

Where has pears gone?

Opheliah · 09/05/2018 17:37

I was quite taken by bloodmagics post there.

Eolian · 09/05/2018 16:55

Wishing you were a woman and 'feeling like a woman' do not mean the same thing. There is no such thing as 'feeling like a woman' because all women are individuals and can only feel like themselves.

Saying that you feel like a woman can seem offensive to women because it implies that there is a set of things that you must feel in order to be a woman. And that's simply not true.

Having a female reproductive system is not a feeling. Most of the actual 'feelings' you might ascribe to being female are usually based on stereotypical bullshit. Am I still a woman if I don't like pretty things and am not particularly warm or empathetic? Yes. If a man likes pretty things and is warm and empathetic, does that in any way mean he's really a woman? No. Whether you are male or female is not based on ypur feelings.

Bloodmagic · 09/05/2018 16:53

@pearsapplesbananas

I am responding directly to you, without reading any of the other comments.

"When I say "I feel like a woman" to somebody, what I mean is:

I wish I was born in a female body. I wish I had a female reproductive system, and that I could carry a child. Every time I look into the mirror, I want to smash my face against it. Every time I look at a "normal" family, my heart sinks, because I will likely never get to have that.

I have sympathy for your pain. However, you do understand that this isn't something that women feel? What you're describing is not what it feels like to be a woman. That sounds like what it feels like to be a man who envies womanhood. That is not a bad thing! Our patriarchal society has taught us that women envying masculinity is natural and normal, but men envying femininity is shameful. It isn't. It is ok. You are OK.

Hormones make me feel less bad. Besides easing my physical dysphoria, they have also important psychological effects (like some women experience with their cycles). They are a tool that helps me deal with my… bad luck at birth.

This is a personal request, please don't compare your hormonal effects to our cycles. They are completely different things. This is important to me because a woman's body is in a constant state of flux, every day of her cycle is different from the last. Women ourselves are only just now starting to comprehend the extent of this because we have been taught to view our body through a male lens, i.e. "just like men, but...". In this case "just like men but with estrogen". A woman's cycle is a totally different thing and being taught that we are similar to men but for a few hormones causes many women to live in shame, pain and misery because we are prevented from understanding how to respond to our unique body and its changing seasons. Your hormones do not fluctuate on a day to day or week to week basis like ours do. Equating our experiences diminishes us both.

It makes me sad to hear you talk about your 'bad luck at birth.' As someone who has suffered through a straight decade of body dysphoria (as I'm sure many of the women here have), please believe me when I say there is nothing wrong with your body. There is nothing wrong with who you are. There is nothing wrong with how you were born. There also isn't anything wrong with wanting to change aspects of your body, and aspects of your appearance, when it's done from a place of self love rather than self loathing. In my experience, you can't hate yourself into a version that you can love. The road doesn't go that way.

But I'm slowly starting to empower myself. Coming out of this endless spiral of self-disgust and self-pity. I might be wrong but, from what I read, it seems like there is a discussion framed as a dichotomy: that giving me a decent chance to life is a direct attack on women's rights. Well, I wouldn't see how, and of course, I wouldn't want it to be.

I don't think anyone here is opposed to you having a decent life. No one here is opposed to you having a glorious and joyful life! What we are opposed to is the idea that you must 'become a woman' to get that. Because you can't. They only way for you to become any sort of woman is to change what 'woman' means so much that it no longer describes or applies to women. Obviously, that would not be not OK and would be an attack on women's rights. I am a woman. You are a transwoman. We are both humans equally deserving of peace, dignity and respect.

I might soliloquize here for a bit on what my view of transwomen are;

Transwomen are men. This is not debatable. They are male humans, members of the sex which produce sperm, which makes them men. That is a cold, inescapable fact.

Transwomen are men who have decided to try to be seen as women, in a patriarchal society that oppresses women in a thousand small and large ways. Transwomen see all the negative consequences of being seen as a woman, or even just as somewhat feminine, and decide to deliberately take it on regardless of the consequences. Even changing their physical bodies to better represent their idea of women. To me, that's something worth celebrating. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all. Heck, if I get to check the box on my next reincarnation of whether I come back as a male or female, I'm not entirely sure I would check female. Transwomen see something so valuable in womanhood that it's worth every sacrifice just to approach it as closely as the can.

Men are really screwed in our patriarchal society. We arbitrarily label half of all human traits as masculine and the other half as feminine, and value the former over the latter. Girls are expected to be feminine, but they're also expected to WANT to be masculine. After all, that's all the 'good' stuff. That's why women aren't shamed (or even noteworthy) for wearing pants or short hair, but men are shamed for wearing dresses and long hair. Because for a man to want the other half of human traits, the feminine stuff, that doesn't square with the whole patriarchal structure. So we demand that men cut out half of their own hearts, that they cut away their 'weak' bits to make themselves stronger (Which makes as much sense as pursuing strength by removing your left arm).
Transwomen are men who so value the parts of themselves deemed feminine that they'd rather cut out the masculine parts instead. Sometimes, even the physical body parts that represent masculinity.

We as a society told these men "You can't be a man and behave like women" and they said "then screw being a man".

That's bloody incredible.
That's beautiful
That's the purest and most emphatic form of goddess worship that I can conceive of.

There's one sticking point which, if we could get over it would unify both sides of this.

Can you, as a transwomen, identify with women, instead of as a woman? Can you associate with femininity and womanhood without claiming it for yourself?

I know that you're unhappy as a man and I truly do empathize with that, as I have been unhappy as a woman in the past. However, the problem was never in me, it was all around me. You are not wrong, you are not the problem. You are fine. You are already whole, as you are. As a male who is feminine, as a male who envies womanhood, and/or as a male who pursues womanhood while knowing it is ultimately unattainable. We are both divine incarnations of the goddess.

Transwomen as a group have been hijacked by "non dysphoric trans lesbians" (straight perverts looking to erode women's boundaries) and by patriarchal power structures (using transwomen to fill women's quotas and avoid having to hire/appoint women to positions of power) for their own purposes. The current state of transgender-ism in politics and society is patriarchal and anti-woman and so women are being forced to oppose it. It doesn't have to be that way, but this one is entirely on transwomen to change their own movement.

TwittleBee · 09/05/2018 16:45

The theme is on the physical and emotional effort the person has gone to in order to "feminise" themselves. But that's not what feminists are interested in! It's what feminists are trying to escape

Spot on LangCleg

OnTheList · 09/05/2018 16:33

There have been a LOT of 'both sides are as bad as each other, feminists should be nicer' posts these past few weeks. Is this the new angle? I have still yet to see anyone telling transactivists to stop threatening to rape and murder women who disagree with them and caring only about the rights of male people (while oddly enough, also abusing transsexual women), but plenty of people berating women for believing in biology and caring about the rights of women Hmm

LangCleg · 09/05/2018 16:25

Here's the thing. Random trans people coming on here to try to persuade feminists into common cause with them all seem to make the same mistake. The theme is on the physical and emotional effort the person has gone to in order to "feminise" themselves. But that's not what feminists are interested in! It's what feminists are trying to escape.

Instead of focusing on your feminisation, OP, try focusing on your socialisation instead.

OnTheList · 09/05/2018 16:08

I wish I was born in a female body. I wish I had a female reproductive system

So, you don't 'feel like' a woman, you wish you were a woman. Very different things and if thats what others mean by 'feeling like' a woman, then it makes more sense and I wish they were more honest about it.

I wish i was many things, I wish I was not many things. Thats lfie for you.

I am sorry you have a hard time with dysphoria, but women here are not fighting against your right to a happy life. Just, we care about womens rights. And yes, if you regard self identyication as something that would make your life happier then we do fight against that. I don't see how self ID would help people with dysphoria like yourself though, given you actually do have dysphoria and have (I presume? If the dysphoria is that bad) been 'living as a woman for a while now? So you could get a GRC anwyay under current rules. If the money is an issue, its means tested.

If your problem is with women saying sex segregation should remain, please take that fight to transactivists. As I am sure you are aware, until transactivists started their self-entitled bollocks, women did not care about transsexual people in their areas. Its only fairly recently that more and more women started to say no, and its nothing to do with transsexual people, everything to do with 'transgender' people (meaning those who simply say they are women..and expect that thats it) and transactivists though.

loveyouradvice · 09/05/2018 15:02

pears welcome.... I am going to take your post at face value - a reaching out and desire to connect.... and I am glad your journey and feelings towards yourself are becoming more positive....

It seems to me as if you are at the very beginning of your journey ... as I was when I found this board back in January. A fascinating and mind-opening journey about how the rights of women and girls, and those of transexuals and transgender people, interweave and often conflict... that it is a messy discussion often lacking definition and unclear boundaries around whose lives are being discussed (like many, I think the interests of transsexuals are VERY different and FAR MORE important than those of AGN men who define themselves as women)

Can I invite you to respond to us in whatever way you want when you come back to this page that has grown so fast in just a day.... and to take more steps in that journey, reading more on this board, challenging yourself and discovering what your beliefs really are..and yes it will take time as little of it is as simple or self-evident as any of us initially think - . and I hope - I truly hope - you might become one of those very important transsexuals brave enough to speak out and help shape the debate, or at the very least to discuss and share amongst your own networks... and echoing a poster above

*If you want to support women, then you'll be working with people like Miranda Yardley & Truscum. You'll be separating yourself from the TRAs, shouting "NOT IN MY NAME" and fighting for our right to retain our single-sex spaces.

How about it?*

As women who care about the lives of women and girls, we need more transsexuals entering the discussion which is full of the angry and aggressive voices of TRAs.... reflective voices that truly embrace the issues and are able to consider them through different eyes, rather than just fighting for what is best for men....

I for one look forward hugely to hearing what you think and hope you will join more discussion threads in the coming weeks... Welcome!

Imchlibob · 09/05/2018 14:59

Thank you for your post OP, I really appreciate it and I fully support your right to live as you wish, including dressing as you wish and taking female hormones as these make you feel better. I absolutely believe you should not be discriminated against, be harmed or live in fear of harm. I hope that you find peace, self acceptance and contentment.

However when you describe your feelings as "I feel like a woman" you are not just talking about how you feel but also trying to define how half the human race feels. The range of how women feel is enormous, and encompasses an incredible diversity which also massively overlaps with how men feel because we are all people.

My own identity is firmly based in an intrinsic belief that no one should be constrained into particular patterns of behaviour or self-expression by their sex. When someone asserts that male and female brains are fundamentally different (intrinsic in the claim you can have the wrong kind for your body) that undermines my sense of self by categorising me against my will.

Words don't just mean what the speaker wants them to mean, their meaning evolves through common consent of both speaker and listener. Women often need to adjust their language to take into account the differing experiences of others. Look elsewhere on these boards and you will see that generally in respectful discussions women aren't making statements like "I am a working mum" - because that is disrespectful to the hard work done by those who don't have paid employment but have plenty of work to do especially if they have children with special needs. Nor "I am a home maker" or "I am a full time mum" because that is disrespectful to women who have jobs and who also make homes and are their children's mother 24/7 even when at the office. It may be that one of the most womanly things a trans woman can do is to accommodate the concerns of women into the language used by not making claims about themselves which intrinsically define other people in this way.

Someone who isn't a woman can go no further than saying "I feel how I imagine women may feel" - and then may dial back to adjust that to "some women".

This isn't denying the existence or reality of trans people. I hope that trans people continue to be vibrantly and unashamedly visible and fully participating in society.

I just wish that I could be confident that when my children's school talks to them about this wonderful spectrum of humanity, that the emphasis would be that there is no correct way to be a boy or correct way to be a girl. Anyone can wear and feel and like and be interested in anything they like. Talk of pink brains and blue brains in the wrong body is intrinsically patriarchal and confirming that people should be categorised. Saying that if you feel unhappy with your pigeonhole you should be allowed to move to a different pigeonhole is intrinsically linked to supporting the existence of the pigeonholes. Let's get rid of the pigeonholes instead.

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 09/05/2018 14:45

You said it better Sqrrl

And I'm one too. It took two deeply abusive relationships before I realised how conditioned I was to believe I had no right not to be hurt, no right to say no. So when people tell me my right to say no is hurtful to them and couldn't I please just let them do what they want to me so they can feel better.....?

Part of me feels terrible because the programming is still there.
But I know now how to say NO. And how bloody dare you?

LaSqrrl · 09/05/2018 14:23

Looks like we cross posted Tinkle

Many women here have experienced abusive relationships because they were raised to give so others could have, and to put the needs of their angry partner above their need not to be beaten or abused. And had been raised to believe that women have no right to leave abusive situations.

Wow, nailed that one. Abusers of course, seem to have 'abuse-dar' to seek out empathetic women that will put others before their own selves. The pot is rich of course. I have been one. Now I am a grumpy old woman who doesn't give a fuck. And I troll the interwebs, shrinking male balls with every sentence I type. Oh how I fail at woman these days! LOL

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 09/05/2018 14:12

And yes, I know you've been nice. You sound very nice. But a plea that we give up our rights because it's been so hard for you and it's so distressing for you is still asking women to put you first.

While completely dismissing that any of those women could possibly have things as hard or as distressing themselves. It's just a nice message of 'you're not as important as me and your job is to give me what I need'.

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