"I feel like a woman"

My friend had a relationship with a woman who it later turns out was trans. (oooh, quite a shock/problem then, eh?) But wait, no problem at all.............

He didn't care cos he liked her. Come on, are we really expected to believe this? But unless the person tells you, you may not know Errr, I think we would.........

I'm really trying to come at this from understanding both sides. But when I look at the behaviour and language used by some people, it makes me want to weep. They are saying things that are in the same vein as what was being said about Irish and POC in the 50s 60s and 70s and about the LGB community in the 80s and about disabled rights in the 90s. Only time will tell who is on the right side of history.

Funny you should mention that and completely disregard what has been said and done to women for thousands of years.
Bit of a tell.

My friend had a relationship with a woman who it later turns out was trans. There are ethical debates to be had around this but do you know what? He didn't care cos he liked her.

Men put their dicks in vacuum cleaners and knotholes as well as other men and women, so your anecdotal evidence is worth bupkis.

My concern on these pages is that when a trans person comes onto a page like this trying to articulate, through very limited media who they are and how they feel and gets slagged off for it on the whole.

You mean the trans persons who have declared women's rights to be anti trans? Why in the world would they be foolish enough to come to a Feminism and Women's Rights forum to "articulate, through very limited media who they are and how they feel" after their representatives have declared Mumsnet and Women's rights to be transphobic?

That is an unreasonable thing to do unless of course they came to troll women who refuse to share their beliefs and have the nerve to say no to them.
Then it makes perfect sense.

Only time will tell who is on the right side of history.

History is written (or re-written) by the winners. Which is why women's Herstory is not taught as part of mainstream education, and is largely hidden away. So what your statement tells me, about you, is that you wish to align yourself with the likely victors in this battle. Statistically, you are correct, male domination will probably win again. GC women will be the 'witches of the 21st century'. And everyone, including men, including you, can go back to worshipping men again.

Some of us will resist that though.

I don’t believe that anyone who had ever seen a woman naked and had sex with her could ever mistake a transwoman for a woman.

Maybe a very young, gullible, man who had nothing to compare a surgical vagina and male bone structure, figure, pelvis, smell, etc, with.... but nah, I just can’t see it. I think your “friend” is an imaginary one.

AGP denial is a massive red flag. I would urge you to stop regurgitating TRA nonsense and actually educate yourself.

AGP is the most researched paraphilia, with empirical evidence provided voluntarily by many thousands of late onset MtF transsexuals (aka AGPs) worldwide with new studies confirming the theory each and every decade including this one since it was first put forward as a hypothesis. It's been thoroughly tested, evidenced and proven. Science is not transphobic and science denial is completely counterproductive.

The science on transsexuals is also decidedly not in its infancy. (No study of a subject that has been intensely researched internationally for more than 80 years can really be said to be in its infancy.) You may simply not have been aware of it before you became a trans ally, but the discipline has made enormous strides in understanding transsexualism and transsexuals and in finding effective treatment options.

"She is also a subscriber to the autogynephilia theory. Which for those that don't know is one that has been widely discredited via serious research."

Oh really? Do tell more.

Which for those that don't know is one that has been widely discredited via serious research.

Link?

Mrssnips

Are you denying that fetishistic cross dressing is a thing? You surely realise it is.

Mrssnips

Please link to anywhere on here where anyone has said that. Where anyone has said or implied that transexual people with gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia like your friend are sex predators. I have never seen that view articulated on this forum. It has not been articulated on this thread either

"She is also a subscriber to the autogynephilia theory. Which for those that don't know is one that has been widely discredited via serious research."
Not sure what you mean by the 'autogynephilia theory', but there are certainly some transwomen who are autogynephiles, by their own admission, and research is not as clear as you would like to claim. I suggest you go and look at the academic work of Anne Lawrence:

www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia.html

for starters.

"There are ethical debates to be had around this but do you know what? He didn't care cos he liked her. "
This is a massive dismissal of the lesbian and gay community, many of whom are quite clear that their sexual orientation is based on sex -- hence a stealth/undeclared transperson, that would not be some interesting ethical discussion point as far as I'm concerned, but sexual contact without informed consent, hence assault as far as I would be concerned. So, thanks for the frankly insulting insinuation that lesbians boundaries should be erased if the lady concerned is nice enough.......................

She is also a subscriber to the autogynephilia theory. Which for those that don't know is one that has been widely discredited via serious research

So why is there a movement calling to make autogynephilia a sexual orientation rather than a paraphilia?

It's still in the DSM too. I think discredited just means massive case of denial.

Sex with a trans person is a difficult one. My friend had a relationship with a woman who it later turns out was trans. There are ethical debates to be had around this but do you know what? He didn't care cos he liked her. But unless the person tells you, you may not know (admittedly female to male may be more obvious due to mastectomy scars, but then men can get breast cancer so who knows).

You're talking about people who have had bottom surgery and pass so convincingly that nobody can tell?

I'm talking about people who have made few changes or none and simply demand acceptance, which is what self-ID boils down to. Young lesbians are getting abuse for not being into penis.

That's the problem with one big trans umbrella and LGBTQQIAA. Make the group too inclusive & the people who actually needed it - like your friend, like young lesbians - get pushed to the bottom.

@EmpressOfSpartacus yes I have. But I don't think that it explains everything. Miranda Yardley is Gender Critical for a start so it comes from a place of bias. She is also a subscriber to the autogynephilia theory. Which for those that don't know is one that has been widely discredited via serious research. TBH I have yet to see a piece of non medical writing, is totally unbiased. The problem I have with a lot of the writing on this is that many of the writers on either side have in effect painted themselves into a corner. Both sides have. And FYI, when the world was widely homophobic in the 80s and 90s I stood alongside my LBG friends. I didn't walk away when they were diagnosed with HIV, or were shunned because they might have it. Sex with a trans person is a difficult one. My friend had a relationship with a woman who it later turns out was trans. There are ethical debates to be had around this but do you know what? He didn't care cos he liked her. But unless the person tells you, you may not know (admittedly female to male may be more obvious due to mastectomy scars, but then men can get breast cancer so who knows). There is a whole ethical debate around that. Personally I wouldn't care either. But thats just me. And thats the point. We are all human at the end of the day.

My concern on these pages is that when a trans person comes onto a page like this trying to articulate, through very limited media who they are and how they feel and gets slagged off for it on the whole.
We are all different and the science attached to this subject is very much in its infancy and is unlikely to be able to keep up with the pace of chance trans people would like. As I said before, I have many friends born male and female, who identify as trans and non binary, who are at different stages in their journey. As to their sexual preferences, some they all identify differently. But at the end of the day they are people. NOT monsters.
@IdentifiesAsMiddleAged from some of the posts that I have seen, yes some Gender Critical people do believe that.

Finally - I have used mixed gender loos myself. My main issue with this is the fact that men don't sit down and the inevitable wading through urine that comes with it.

Finally @smithsinarazz thanks. I think this is a topic worthy of discussion but not in the way it is being manifested in many places from both sides.

yy Mrssnips Do read that if you haven't.

Have you seen this letter from the Guardian, by Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison, Debbie Hayton & others, Mrssnips? www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights

^^ that was to Mrssnips

*definitions

... sorry. Pressed post too soon.

The point is that anyone, penis or not, who says they are a woman will be able to enter women's facilities, and that some of them could have nefarious purposes. They would not need to feel or show gender dysphoria.

In other words, a man, who has no desire or intention to remove his penis, let alone be so desperate to do so that he self-harms could call himself a woman and claim rights that women have fought for

I'm bi. I had an ex years ago who had agp, and it wasn't the sex, with what was essentially what the thai's would term, "a ladyboy", that was the problem. It was all his other issues, odd things he did, not taking no for an answer, being slovenly and treating his mother like his servant etc, that made me dislike him. The male side of his personality was very masculine, and the feminine like a bad, cringe worthy, slutty vacant, silly "coy" caricature, outside the bedroom. But he kept insisting he was a woman. A very masculine, misogynistic, ignorant of womens biology, testosterone fuelled woman . I'm no prude, I have no problem with kinky people, as long as they keep it consensual, but men with fetishes often over step boundries. Sexual compulsion?

That whole experience gave me a lot of food for thought, before turf was even a word. I'm a turf by all definiations, yet I've done what no tra ever wants to do -or admit too, and that's having a sexual relationship with a trans person yet they STILL know better--. The whole thing gives me a headache if I think about it too much. And that's just the agp driven men, never mind the ones with body dysmorphia or who are gay, (are some gay men trying to escape being gay "man attracted to men", by trying to become females? I have so many questions. But they never get answered).

"If you honestly believe that someone would do that just cos they want to go into a female changing room and abuse women then there really is no hope for you"

Nobody believes that.

Not all of the LGB ever wanted the T added BTW............Despite the fact that it was gay venues which were a safer area for various trans folk back then. We know what we are objecting to, and why.

I came out in the late 90s, so a bit later. But I'm immensely grateful that I got to do it among a supportive community of women who took it for granted that lesbians were same sex attracted, and that anyone who had a go at you for that was a homophobe.

What about the homophobic abuse that young lesbians get now if they refuse to see transwomen as sexual partners?

"....and about the LGB community in the 80s.........."
Except many of us are from the LGB community, and were there in the 80s. We know. And saying someone is a man, or isn't a woman, is not the same as the homophobic abuse we got in the 80s (or yesterday, frankly). This is a bad analogy.

Not all of the LGB ever wanted the T added BTW............Despite the fact that it was gay venues which were a safer area for various trans folk back then. We know what we are objecting to, and why.

"one individual cut their own genitalia off with a Swiss Army knife"

The thought of my child doing that to himself breaks my heart. I self harmed as a teenager, and was suicidal at times, and it's a complex and traumatic subject. I've been wondering for a while if there's a correlation between traumatic abuse of some type, and certain fetishes. And what causes a child to feel so "in the wrong body"? I think we have to learn to eventually love the skin we're in, or we'll never be truly content. Isn't that why plastic surgery is so addictive? There's always something else that needs to be "fixed". Expressing yourself by how you dress, piercings, tattoo's etc are often different in my opinion, and more about personality, creativity etc.

So many people assume all feminists hate men, or transwomen. We don't. Many trans people commit suicide after gender reassignment surgery. That makes me feel sad. I don't think they've proved extreme surgery or hormones etc always help. I wonder how many transmen act quite cocky and full of confidence, and go home and take off the happy mask while they do their pelvic squeazes and check for hair in there. As far as I know, neo vaginas will heal if the "wound" is not kept open? And certain skin graft types can cause hair to grow and cause infection?

I don't want that for my son! I'd rather he wore sexy lingerie over his lady dick and tit implants (which are quite common these days and reversable), a hot dress and a ton of make up. I don't care what he wears, how he talks, or who he'll sleep with (as long as he's using condoms). But having a lady dick, aka a regular penis, and regular hormones, he'd still be 100% male, and I'd think he should use the mens toilet, changing rooms etc. Fuck what other men think. The patriarchy and misogyny play such a big part here.