Channel 4's Genderquake Debate is heavily criticised/ boycotted(?) by prominent transgender activists & allies .

NatLuc, if someone told you that such surgery had been outlawed (for whatever reason) and that you would just have to make do without it - would there be a bit of you that was relieved?

Not so very many decades ago, there were no surgical options. I presume people must on the whole have found other ways to handle or suppress their dysphoria (and some of course wouldn’t have coped).

I just wonder - might it actually better to feel there is no choice?

It’s far from perfect but it’s better than what I have now.

Fake is better than what nature gave you? Ok. I'm not playing into the delusion any more. You will, if you go down the surgery route end up with a fake vagina, fake breasts and if you have FFS a fake face, in an attempt to be a 'real' woman. Can't you see the irony?

I know that whatever decision I make will be the right one.

That is absolutely spot on...you need to do whats best for you

But stay safe!

@Elletorro - I am so glad that you have no scarring but my heart goes out to you that it still hurts.. can I ask you.. if it’s too personal feel free to say no; if you had to make the same decision again would you still choose to go through c section rather than regular delivery?

@Rufustheyawningreindeer - thank you! I know that whatever decision I make will be the right one. I just have a lot more research to do.. but I need a second surgical consultatant to agree probably 12 months after the one in 4 months before I need to make a decision. And even the. I’d have the surgery waiting time. So it’s a way off yet. Plenty of time. :)

@spontaneousgiventime - I know. I’m well aware which is why I said ‘even if I can’t have a real vagina’. But I can at least be comfortable in my own body by having this surgery.. hopefully... It’s far from perfect but it’s better than what I have now.

Thats very true elle

And its one thing after another...it doesnt seem to end

No no rufus I don’t need flowers although you are a darling. It’s not about me.

Honestly I feel such a visceral connection with this.

cosmetic surgery is the Chinese foot bonding of our age. It’s bloody coercive patriarchy sold as choice and now parcelled up for the gender non conforming who I do believe are genuinely the most vulnerable In this particular arena

Was Miranda Yardley asked to participate in the debate does anyone know?

Thanks I’m fine honest: it’s still better than natural childbirth!!!

I just want to highlight that surgery especially in such a sensitive area might cause ungoing pain and draw your mind and attention to the source of your dysphoria. I absolutely understand that you are between a rock and a hard place natluc. I willingly chose my surgery but I’m still traumatised by it- I’m lucky that it’s not a part of my identity so I can sideline it

elletoro

Have the doctors said it will get better?

When i had my c section it was twingy for ages but i dont think it was anywhere as long as 3 years!

A constant reminder.
Elletorro So sorry.
The thread about injuries that most of us sustain through childbirth labour's made me think even more about what this is all about. We endure so much. And much of it is preventable.

nat

Good luck

NatLuc No matter how 'pretty' it might look, you won't have a vagina, it will be an inverted penis made to look like one.

Natluc

I’m 3 years after an elective c section. Nothing went wrong, no scar, no overhang.

It still hurts now. All the time just a twinge. A constant reminder.

@QuentinSummers - This question I think would require me to go in to too much detail and might be inappropriate for the thread.

But basically even if I can’t have a real vagina and plumbing.. I want what I do have to be as close to what I should have had. So that when I look in the mirror I don’t wince. Secondly, hormones and anti-androgens have basically made what I have useless for anyone else. What I have now does nothing for me but outs me to passersby and causes me dysphoria. That is a simplified answer.

Hope it at least partially answers you. :)

theaveragewife Yeah! NYT comments are often better than the articles.

woman11017 read the comments underneath the article (the reader rated ones).

natluc why do it if you are that worried? Why not work on accepting your body how it is? Whether or not you have a penis is something that a) doesn't affect your personality and b) isn't of any relevance to anyone but you and your sex partners.

I hate to say this, but whether you have a penis or a neovag doesn't affect how much of a woman you are. Don't feel like you have to have surgery to "prove" your womanhood.

www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/opinion/britain-transgender-debate-caitlyn-jenner.html

NYT used to be a good newspaper (mistaking BBC for Channel 4 is the least of this article's problems); there must be lots of mullah flying around.

I haven't seen the programme, but do watch Channel 4 news, or did, until it got a bit odd. They've clearly been leaned on about a range of other news stories, and looks like this one's another set up. Shame. Newman wouldn't have had her job if it hadn't been for women's liberation activists and feminists.

Funnily enough Supermatch you don't have a definition of men at all

Trans men ARE men. They are men who are transgender, they are trans-identified men.

Funnily enough Pratchet that isn't the dictionary definition of trans men www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/FTM

Also in case I didn’t make it clear, the American option is only something I’m looking at if I am not satisfied after my GIC consultation. :)

WhereYouLeftIt - thank you for your concern. I think pioneer might have been a poor choice of word. Lol

The surgeon I’m looking at is very well renowned and basically uses the same technique as the NHS surgeons but it is refined in ways that the NHS surgeons aren’t at liberty to do. Happy to send links off this thread don’t want to derail.

NatLuc - regardless of the type of surgery you're are undergoing, being operated on by "someone who is seen as a pioneer" - I wouldn't be hurrying to go to them. Pioneers are doing something new, and you would be more guinea pig than patient.

I (vaguely) remember figures from when keyhole surgery was still fairly new, basically showing that outcomes were better once the surgeon had 750 such ops under their belt. Pioneering surgery is likely to need the same.

@IdentifiesAsMiddleAged - I'm not going to lie.. I am 4 months from my first surgical consultation. The NHS 'results' I have seen.. make me want to NOT have it. It is unlikely I would be able to save up around £30K to go to America and have it done by someone who is seen as a pioneer.

I hope that this consultation will put my mind at rest and I am worrying over nothing and I am damned grateful that I can get it on the NHS.. but I am scared given I only have one set of 'raw materials'.

One of the reasons so few go through with it perhaps? Another being the recovery time/unable to afford the time off work.

Seriously - outside of the Twitter bubble, the number of people who think it is unreasonable to say you're not a woman you have a penis is miniscule. It doesn't really matter whether you agree or not, the vast majority of Britons do not think you should be thrown out of a TV debate audience for saying that

I agree. People who have spoken to about this issue really are not aware how wide the transgender umbrella is, and that the vast majority of transgender people do not have surgery to their genitals