Genderquake

I think they tried to cover too many topics in too little time so none of the points got to be fully explored or developed at all. Though what the hell Jenner’s endless, tedious prattling about peeing in Trump Tower was supposed to illustrate was beyond me, so when time was given (usually to Jenner), it wasn’t used well! I would have liked to have seen Sarah and Munroe really have a chance to discuss in depth; I thought they were both the most interesting and I wanted to hear what they had to say.

It was really badly hosted and that journalist woman was the most annoying person I’ve ever seen on tv.

I would guess that they panel were briefed beforehand on the topics to be discussed. Did anyone get the impression that GG was expecting to talk about something different than her comment (evidently made) on the Victoria Derbyshire show. She said more than once that she thought that Cathy was going to talk about something else. This definitely threw her and of course MB jumped on this to belittle GG. Very direspectful.

The whole thing was badly organised and run, CJ was just so boring, brattling on about nothing. Agree with others that both CJ and MB were given way too much airtime.

Sarah did well.

Interesting seating formation - I think if Sarah and GG had been sitting next to each other it would have made for a better conversation.

twittle
the reason Caitlyn and Monroe were invited was exactly what you said, to re-inforce the nonsense that being trans is to sexualize women, millions of women portray themselves in the same way regardless.

The panel, was hounded by anti-trans people in the comfy seats invited by channel 4, something to do with Ian Katz???

Twittle thanks for letting me know, it is so strange, it wasn’t showing for me last night either, nor was it showing in active or in FWR. I can’t see it at all unless I type it into the search box or keep it open.

SirVixofVixHall it shows up for me

I am rather new to this whole trans debate - only had my eyes fully open to it after having so many Trans threads pop up on MN and I got reading. Before I was rather "let them be whoever/whatever they want" and that was it.

I watched the 2 shows (need to watch the "debate" still though) and I think the thing that has struck me the most from the show is how it came across, that to be a woman is to be a sexual creature with an immaculate features. It was like Saffy couldn't class herself as a woman because she wasn't pretty or sexual and the Transwomen were women because they wanted to be pretty and enjoy being sexualised objects.

It worries me that there is massive issue with these new genders that we are actually trying to force people into social constructs of what is "girlie" and was is "boyish" and therefore you must be a woman or a man to match. Never mind it is biology that dictates gender and everyone's personalities are allowed to wildly vary without needing to match their "gender"

I think DH hit nail on head for me when he raged about how it felt the transwomen were playing a part on what they thought women are - sexualised objects. He stated that the blonde transwoman appeared to only be interested in the lesbian because it is a typical male fetish and therefore another sexual knot in their belt.

On a similar ponder, the transman also appears to be playing into the typical social construct of what it means to be a man - they said that being seen as tough and manly was important in their culture and I wonder if when their mum left they had to become tough which they associated with being a male trait. That coupled with liking women made them feel as though they must be a man?

As a bisexual woman, I can understand the confusion some of these youngsters are going through but I have never thought I should become gender fluid depending on who I fancy to fit a social norm of sexuality. I am just me, but yes I am a woman.

Jeez sorry for long post too! and apologise if it seems like a load of ramblings without much proper thought (because that is what it is!)

This thread isn’t showing up for me anywhere, unless I type the header into the search box, why is that ? It isn’t in “threads I’m on “ for instance.

I am sure this has been said before, but the thing I took away from this is that, once again, those born male are telling me I must accept a label for myself. They are choosing what to call themselves, but they are all choosing what I must use for myself. I am not a woman, I am a CIS woman, and if I don't accept that then I am a TERF. I am a woman, plain and simple and I would hope they would be respectful to me and refer to me as such. Except they won't. Because this is all one way, once again women must do as they are told.

Sarah Ditum did know better than that particular trans man. She was quoting facts, the rest were all about emotions and personal stories. Which are irrelevant. Could that trans man deny that they are effectively sterilised? I know the trans woman on the show who has had the surgery stated that it was sad they could no longer have their own children. I suppose it is a good way to deal with overpopulation in a way. Get this generation so confused that they voluntarily sterilise themselves at a young age before they realise how amazing having your own children is.

Sarah Ditum's comments via Twitter:

"Amazing that that debate happened at all, so wheels not spinning off till halfway is an achievement.

• Trans activists don't want to talk about men who'll abuse self-ID
• "They'll rape you anyway" is a bad argument
• & trans activists are stunningly chill about sterilising kids"

twitter.com/sarahditum/status/993988706599096321

He said if you wanted to show teenagers patriarchy in action you could just show them this programme. Alpha male gets most airtime, even though he is dull and dim. Intelligent and interesting females get talked over, or made to look confused. It was tragic really. I feel depressed today.

Read this.

Sarah was awful, most neutrals I've spoke to said she was the worst by far.
Going on about old arguments and conflation about some man and gender neutral toilets, it was transparently derailing.

Then she tried to to talk over and presumed she knew better about trans men, than an actual trans man.

It was embarrassing, also germaine greer made a point about caster semanya in sport, a cis woman...... all the anti trans arguments sounded like gibberish.

Talking about it with Dh last night. He commented on how Cathy turned to CJ , the elder male, for the summing up, rather than to Germaine, the oldest person, and the academic with decades of experience. He said if you wanted to show teenagers patriarchy in action you could just show them this programme. Alpha male gets most airtime, even though he is dull and dim. Intelligent and interesting females get talked over, or made to look confused. It was tragic really. I feel depressed today.

Spotted Rose- Rose of Dawn (full name ??)

Wonder if channel 4 would allow a follow up with neutral non-celebrity host/interviewer and let non celebrity trans and gender critical and trans gender critical panel members talk about self id. Then we might find some common ground and empathy

Jordan Peterson showed that Newman's critical thinking faculty is weak.

Well someone said she was a 'good ally' on twitter

Just a reminder that Cathy Newman was being groomed by All About Trans as long ago as 2013:
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/interaction-with-cathy-newman-channel-4-news/

Not coincidentally, I suspect, she did Lily Madigan's TV interview.

Thanks, Assigned!

Time for me to go to bed now, working tomorrow. Shall probably watch on the weekend, when not working.

Sarah was brilliant, wasn't she.

She could have been, but if don't think she managed to make any points heard at all - she was just talked over or cut off every time she spoke. I would have loved to have seen Magdalen Berns on that panel.

Sarah was fabulous.

I was so pleased when she mentioned women being spoken over.

After the fourth time they stopped Sarah talking it's really no wonder people from the audience started speaking out

Don't watch it tonight, you won't sleep.

Yes, this.

The heckling was a bad mistake; it made Munroe look like a victim. It was a bad own goal.

Caitlin Jenner got deferred to constantly. Interesting that the person who spoke the most and was rarely interrupted is the person who has spent the longest being a man...

Am furious that only Caitlin and Munroe were asked to sum up at the end. Should have had Dimbleby hosting, he’d do it fairly!

It is pretty depressing. But we have not lost!!

Sarah was brilliant, wasn't she.

Light

Don't watch it tonight, you won't sleep.

I should have listened to myself