Genderquake

inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/genderquake-channel-4-germaine-greer-trans/
Comment by Owl:
(extract)

"The show is framed as a respectful, nuanced discussed about gender, where all points of view get to be heard. Sounds pretty polite and reasonable, right? I thought so too, until I learned that they planned to give platform to transphobic speakers that have said horrendous and damaging things about people like me. This will inevitably spark more negative media coverage that will only continue have had long lasting negative consequences to the mental well-being of trans people, like a recent study shows. The show is a perfect example of how my rights, my identity and my reality is seen as a point of debate. While I’ve been a campaigner for over 10 years, I have never experienced as much hostile media coverage of trans issues as in the UK. For the past 2 years that I’ve been living in there, I have been in constant shock by the way the media treats trans people and the amount of misinformation being put out there by allegedly respected platforms.... continues"

Usually on any panel, its men who are listened too, deferred too and allowed to speak more than women.

I found it very enlightening the only person who called themselves a man on the panel was almost totally ignored, and the two males who identified as women given the most airtime.

It was very clear who they thought were men and who women, and that was nothing to do with gender.

Usually on any panel, its men who are listened too, deferred too and allowed to speak more than women.

I found it very enlightening the only person who called themselves a man on the panel was almost totally ignored, and the two males who identified as women given the most airtime.

It was very clear who they thought were men and who women, and that was nothing to do with gender.

Ok, so in that case, the Womems Place Meetings that have been touring the country aren’t legitimate debate either, thanks for clarifying that.

The women's place meetings have never been framed as being a debate, and besides which Munroe Bergdorf was invited to and attended one recently and AFAIK other individuals with similar viewpoints to Munroe have also been invited. So.

Beamur

I do agree with you and to be fair, noone seems to be happy about the way it was handled.

I tuned in, hoping to hear a debate. But I think it was poorly handled all round, no one seemed to get a chance to clearly make a point. Seems more like a set up to antagonise and polarise. I am genuinely interested to hear and understand the issues here and I don't think this has aided my understanding much. Not a reflection on the panellists, but the way the debate was facilitated - or not.

Ok, so in that case, the Womems Place Meetings that have been touring the country aren’t legitimate debate either, thanks for clarifying that.

Woman's Place meetings aren't televised by a national public service broadcaster in prime time. They also do give the perspective from trans people.

People had been invited to be in the audience specifically to take part and then that didn't happen. I think the shouting out was rude but I can understand the frustration if people were expecting to be able to have their say and then that didn't happen.

It was chaired very poorly.

And no, a debate involves a motion and then an equal number of people speaking either for or against and then usually a vote from the floor as to whether they agree or disagree with the motion. That wasn't a debate. The WPUK meetings aren't debates either.

I do think those supporting the hecklers last night are hypocrites if they condemned Munroe shouting out during the (I think ) Bristol Meeting. Conversely, it'll be interesting to see if that's aired in the documentary next Wednesday and whether Munroe will suddenly be all in favour of shouting out heckling by then...

I watched it and was appalled by the treatment of Greer and the lack of respect for Ditum’s right to be heard. Jenner was incredibly dull and irritating, the whole show would have been better if Jenner had not been included.

The host was not effective in ensuring that arguments were aired and was particularly unpleasant to Greer, and unnecessarily deferent to Jenner.

There were a lot of articulate people with strong opinions in the audience who were not given the opportunity to speak, while Jenner wasted precious time on completely irrelevant anecdotes (what does any of this have to do with them being dyslexic?).

The consensus from the transgender community seems to be that the transgender panelists were treated badly and shouldn’t have been exposed to such a hostile environment.

Channel 4 appeared to have succeeded in pissing off everybody – amazing! gender critical feminists and TRAs agree on something! – that show was crap and unhelpful to anyone. It’s a shame, because there was a potential for a proper discussion, but it just wasn’t facilitated.

Debate is allowing for equal chance of opposing views to be put forward and then both sides to be equally discussed, rationally and intelligently. What took place last night was certainly not a debate. Maybe watch Question Time for a bit of a better view on what a debate should look like or attend a local debating club oopster

"As part of their Genderquake season, last night Channel 4 aired a live debate with a host of voices, including Munroe Bergdorf, Caitlyn Jenner, Germaine Greer and Sarah Ditum. Often, it made for distressing viewing, which no doubt terrified young gender-questioning people watching at home."
continues....

Amrou Al-Kadhi writes:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/genderquake-channel-4-debate-genderqueer-transgender-caitlin-jenner-munroe-bergdorg-sarah-ditum-a8342771.html

Outnumbered and biased in the sense that they should have had a fair split people of any sex/gender/identity/feelz for each opposing side of the debate. That's what a debate is.

Oh my just seen from an image on that article how excluded Sarah was in her positioning! Why was she not seated within the circle! Again, women being fricking pushed out of the conversation

Huffpost's article:
"Channel 4 is facing criticism after a live debate, which was part of its ‘Genderquake’ series, saw panellists Munroe Bergdorf and Caitlyn Jenner heckled with transphobic abuse...
...However, viewers quickly grew uncomfortable when members of the audience began shouting transphobic comments during the debate, and when Munroe called for them to be removed by security, her request was ignored."

(interesting to see which twitter accounts feature in the article)
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/genderquake-the-debate-munroe-bergdorf-transphobic_uk_5af2ab48e4b0a0d601e7e995

R0wantrees thanks for that. I really need to get back onto twitter

R0wantrees - thanks or posting that.

crispbuttyfan "the reason Caitlyn and Monroe were invited was exactly what you said, to re-inforce the nonsense that being trans is to sexualize women"

What makes you think that?

I think they were chosen because they are high profile trans women. I imagine Channel 4 thought it was quite good to get someone so high profile as Jenner.

Sadly, Jenner was as boring as last week's fish and chips and I hope they are regretting it. Why not pick a regular trans woman who could talk about real experiences, not peeing in Trump Towers!

Do you have any evidence of what they were picked?

"... millions of women portray themselves in the same way regardless."

Do you mean millions of women dress in a sexy way? That's up to them.

Sarah Ditum, who was brilliant.

Posie Parker's account of the debate (from her Twitter thread)

"I met up with #manfriday, Sarah Ditum & Rose of Dawn. Germaine Greer sat next to me & was delightful! When we got into the studio I was given my place to sit. As I looked around it dawned on me that not only the panel was biased but also the audience.

Women who don't think women have penises were in the minority. I was privy to Newman's script... CAITLIN it read, CAITLIN, CAITLIN.... It wasn't a gender debate after all it was the Caitlin- so boring that his male sense of self importance can't be masked- Jenner show.

What happened was an acute lesson in women being put in their place, Newman allowed Ditum to be constantly interrupted, even when in mid sentence and yet told Sarah to allow Munroe to speak even when he'd interrupted her in the first place.
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From the off Ditum was disadvantaged as her chair wasn't part of the group but set back a little, so anytime shew wanted to talk she had to push herself to the edge of her chair. Ash-Girls in India die because they wear skirts-Libfem moron was too irritating to tweet about

The two born females consisting of "I hated wearing skirts" and "every time I go food shopping I wet myself because toilets are upsetting" were routinely ignored, decorative pots in the Green house of Trans ideological knotweed aka men. The whole program was to indoctrinate.

The audience are supposed to think "trans women are the most oppressed women" a little tricky to believe when your view is blocked by a very tall millionaire who literally got away with killing someone. Not too oppressed from where I was sitting.

Manroe talked about the mortality rate of trans women being aged 35, these statistics are as idiotic as they sound. He also had a really hard time with women speaking and calling out, perhaps if the program makers hadn't been so biased there would have been no need.

I was told I would be asked a question, but I think it was just a lie to get feminists in the audience. I am told Gendered Intelligence or GIRES did diversity training with the ITN teams a couple of weeks ago, is this true @iankatz1000 Overall the debate was shocking.

Sarah should be proud of herself, watching it back she was articulate and clear and anyone could see she was treated with disdain and y'know like a woman. Newman proved that she's unprofessional and peculiar about women, I'm glad @jordanbpeterson wiped the floor with her.

PS.Germaine was blindsided and gaslit by Newman, she has never been on the Victoria Derbyshire show.

And @cathynewman told people to engage, the heckling was asked for....it was a set up."

twitter.com/ThePosieParker/status/994151978585542657

I have seen on twitter that Germaine hadn’t been on the Victoria B show at all, hence the confusion .

I haven't seen any of this yet, so can't comment on the ins and outs of the documentary and the debate, but I just wanted to say to TwittleBee what an interesting post that was.

lostlemon
Did anyone get the impression that GG was expecting to talk about something different than her comment (evidently made) on the Victoria Derbyshire show.
Yes I thought that.

I also thought (yet again) that Sarah Ditum was absolutely amazing. She can keep her cool under pressure, she sticks to the point, she comes across as well informed and articulate.
I think she's an amazing spokeswoman and role model.

crispbuttyfan - I wouldn't call it nonsense. Women have the right to sexualise themselves. Men don't have their right to sexualise women's bodies.

lostlemon - possible that they kept them split to prevent them from having each-other as support? Sounds like it was a real fail of a debate giving an unfair air-time to self-entitled "celebs" rather than actually discussing the issues surrounding the gender debate - including the threat to women's work on equality.

@JustABrokenDoll "I didn't hear that bit re: Markus, probably popped to the loo - I'm watching on catch-up and it won't pause."

I WAS WRONG!!! Marcus was not talking about an ex boyfriend of his, he said "When Howie told me he was trans." He was talking about Romerio.

I've gone back and asked for my comment to be deleted as it was completely wrong. Marcus was I think cheated on by a former partner and that was why the truth was so important to him. But I was completely wrong to say that he had had a trans boyfriend, I misheard. APOLOGIES.

"I came back part way through Romario's face to face with their mum (which I must admit brought a tea to my eye)."

Yes, indeed. It seems Romario has a very tough time of it.

"Max's story also had me in tears when I watched it recently."

Heartbreaking isn't it?