Genderquake

Prob the editing but interesting that Charlie, when asked what surgery they wanted, refers only to facial surgery...

amalfimamma go back and read my original post and you will see that I didn't say anything like that.
I was talking about an individual person not a whole group of people.
I did (rather badly I admit ) try to clarify that point.
Perhaps I should have avoided the word lesbian altogether in my original sentence and leave it with.

We can fall in love with whoever we chose to do so with. (As long as they are adults and consenting)

Is that better?

Stop looking for disagreements where there are none.

.

@GaspingShark

"This is true, but unless they're psychotic people also have the capacity for insight and to recognise irrationality in themselves. For you to say "Why have all the bother, just do this" overrides their dignity just as telling a depressed person to cheer up or smile does. It's none of your business."

Well I am sorry if you think I am treating people without dignity. I think encouraging women to bind their breasts shows a lack of dignity. It is indeed not my business, but as these people are on a TV documentary, I would imagine they would know people would discuss this.

My concern is that women are being encouraged to potentially damage their bodies. This is scary to me. I am not someone who hates or dislikes trans people or non-binary people.

Saffron said that identifying as non-binary had made dating hard, I felt that this and lack of confidence must make it harder.

Plus I watched this, below, about Max, last night, and it saddened me very much, but again, indeed, it is none of my business.

Im finally catching up with this show, and just feeling sorry for the non-binary person.

They have just said how they feel the opposite of edgy and cool and saod no one would put themseleves throught that if they didnt have too.

I just want to give them a huge hug and take them through some feminist history, show them some amazing females who didnt fit the "gender" box theyre all obsessed with.

I also had a lump on my throat when the blonde transwoman talked about having a family, then said they hadnt had sperm frozen.

I just feel sympathy at how hard they are making life for themselves, and how hard things are for them.

It's not sexual preference its sexual orientation

@Hyppolyta

Exactly.

But you'll be SS now by Sakuranoseirei as head terf

@whathaveiforgottentoday

Im sure you can. Just trying to point out that a lesbian is well within her rights to say they'd never fancy a mtf. Just like I as a heterosexual could never see myself with a ftm.

There is nothing transphobic or homophobic about that statement. Just stating sexual preferences, which can't be changed and redefined to keep a small but vocal minority.

I have just caught up with this and I am quite shocked at the reaction on this thread. The transman in it was just horribly bullied by a bunch of bitchy gay men dressed up as women in one of the most obvious cases of misogyny that has ever been presented as part of this debate.

I can believe it, seeing how misogynistic many transactivists are towards trans identified females. Disclaimer, I haven't been watching the programme because I like having a working TV/manageable blood pressure, so only following it here and going on what I am reading. I'll watch the Bergdorf documentary and the debate on catch up. I may watch the programme under discussion at a later date.

@Waz - I did say that I thought what (Marcus ?) did was totally out of order.

It was all about Marcus just because Marcus' boyfriend cheated on him once upon a time. They, therefore, thought that they had the right to demand "the truth" from someone who clearly is not okay with being out about the fact they are trans.

The wording when they confronted Romario was made to make Marcus seem like the good, 'upfront' guy and everyone else a bunch of backstabbing bitches. It was all about Marcus.

They didn't tell Filomena about Romario from a good place, it was Marcus wanting to be the one to deliver the information.

Marcus strikes me as a bully.

Disclaimer: I am a terf. Had it been made clear I am unwelcome at local Momentum and had to stop attending feminist groups etc as a result of this.

However...

I have just caught up with this and I am quite shocked at the reaction on this thread. The transman in it was just horribly bullied by a bunch of bitchy gay men dressed up as women in one of the most obvious cases of misogyny that has ever been presented as part of this debate.

The claim by the silly white gay man, that Romario was required to 'out' himself because silly white gay man 'had never met anyone in the community who behaved this way' struck me as culturally imperialistic. Which you would have thought people like this would have been against...

Almafi Im straight and just started typing a reply to that question, but then realised what I was actually thinking is, "its a woman so even if getting out caused a negative reaction, Id have a chance of defending myself".

Opposite way round, if I was lesbian and confronted with a man?
Well Im not sure if Id agree just to escape rape or violence. Which is rape anyway.

amal perfectly capable of considering a hypothetical situation on my own!
However have never and probably due to my age, will never encounter the scenario in real life.

Asking the questions for insight which some of you have kindly obliged.

@whathaveiforgottentoday

Ok let's try it this way. Presume you are a single heterosexual. You go out with friends, meet a man at a bar, you're attracted to each other. You chat the whole night, and go home together as consensual adults.

He gets undressed and you find this man is actually a woman. How would you feel? As a heterosexual woman.

It's none of your business.

It's my business to challenge the legitimacy of their beliefs when their ideology threatens my rights. Their right to swing their arms and "be their true authentic selves" ends right where my nose begins.

amal.
Only know one in real life and much much younger (and inappropriate to even be thinking of such thinking of finding them attractive, same for anybody of their age). Therefore never an issue I've had to consider in real life.
I'm asking the questions for clarity and most definitely not a dig at anyone. I teach much of this topic and am just keen to fully understand the debate fully, hence the questions.

As someone with an eating disorder brought on by OCD and someone has experienced anxiety 'attacks' etc I don't generally assume everything people experience or believe about themselves is necessarily true. We are not always our own best friends, only doing for ourselves what is good and authentic for ourselves.

This is true, but unless they're psychotic people also have the capacity for insight and to recognise irrationality in themselves. For you to say "Why have all the bother, just do this" overrides their dignity just as telling a depressed person to cheer up or smile does. It's none of your business.

Wow. Thought provoking stuff. I'd say I'm gender critical and a radcial feminist but its made me think more. Of course, its heavily edited and no doubt some prompting and provoking of conflict has gone on. Its made it clear to me there is massive diversity amongst the 'trans' (wider?) community. The various reactions to the programme show that too ie the complaints from women and some trans activists!

Also I was surprised, perhaps naively, how much of it is about sex(ual activity) and the desperate need to be affirmed and desired. I wish someone would acknowledge how harmful gender and associated stereotypes are to ALL of us.

"Are we ready for this?? I'm already angry....... Just from the trailer."

I have never seen such moronic tweets as under the #Genderquake hashtag. They believe woman is a gender and gender is a feeling. And anyone who disagrees is an evil transphobe/fascist/bigot/whatever.

@whathaveiforgottentoday

You say you're a heterosexual so I assume that as a heterosexual, like me you'd never fancied a male presenting woman.

Lesbians are homosexual females. So. It stands to reason that they'd never fancy a man. Otherwise they'd be bisexual....

Im not keen on the 'not needing labels' when it comes to sexuality.

If my daughters decide they are attracted to females, only females, not men with a female gender identity, what does that make them?

Even Stonewall class lesbains as same gender attracted.

Its important we dont erase peoples sexual orientation, and gay children know its absolutely fine to be same sex attracted, not just same gender.

juzza
I thought you could fall in love with whoever you liked. Hence, the 'lesbian' can like whoever she likes.
Perhaps she will need alter her current label but this is where I don't get the whole need for labels. I was talking about an individual and thought her behaviour came across quite genuine (as genuine as you can get when being filmed!!).

However, I'm heterosexual so not speaking from a lesbian perspective and also need to say that I absolutely disagree with the idea that lesbians 'should fancy transwomen cos they're women argument' .

martha yes I agree that they could have explained it better on the show. Although they are male due to the Y chromosomes, I thought it was one of the intersex conditions which genuinely blurs the distinction between the sexes. Plus they have reduced fertility. What I'm trying to say is that it should be treated differently to transwomen that are XY and often need hormone treated regardless of which gender they choose to identify with. (Although, many individuals are unaware they have the condition so appears to have varying degrees of effect on the individual). Just clarifying my understanding of the condition especially as I teach about it sometimes!