Genderquake

From.Olivia's blog:
This was totally incongruent with the statement issued by the LGBTIQA+ Greens who have a longstanding reputation for bullying lesbians and older women out of their group.

LGBTQ Greens list of their 'people':
lgbtiqa.greenparty.org.uk/people/

I know of Challenor but none of the others, can anyone expand on how this group have been hostile to lesbians?

I'm also aware of Stella Gardiner (GreenStella/Seastar/AuntyStella) who is a sort of weepy Green equivalent of the LDs Sarah Brown. Who is setting the green agenda on this, is Challenor the main pusher?

It would be interesting to understand better what was going on prior to the debate. Given the open letter (in op) from many prominent in the transgender community was only published during the afternoon, I think it likely that there were a number of negotiations etc.

Oh, good point! Yes.

I'd love to hear her talk candidly on her views and the criticisms of how she handled the debate

It would be interesting to understand better what was going on prior to the debate. Given the open letter (in op) from many prominent in the transgender community was only published during the afternoon, I think it likely that there were a number of negotiations etc.

Olivia’s blog was a very good read and completely reminds me (and sometimes i pause and wonder if i’m sure I’m right) why i about turned and became cautious and gender critical. I watched the debate and couldn’t hear the shout outs but did think at the time they were a bit childish and damaged the image of calm rationale that i imagine the radfems wanted to portray - i can understand now how frustrating it must have been sitting there during the debate as i was quite frustrated just sitting watching at home. I think my opinion of Cathy Newman has went down, id love to hear her talk candidly on her views and the criticisms of how she handled the debate.

Olivia's blog is absolutely brilliant. How badly have the Green Party behaved?! They told the media before her!

Olivia's blog (Olivia is the 'heckler' who has been suspended from the Green Party) : perspicats.wordpress.com/2018/05/11/the-genderquake-debate-fiasco-and-the-mccarthyism-that-followed/

Ben Shapiro:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3231439-Now-Biological-Women-Will-Never-Win-a-Marathon-Ever

When a guy like Ben Shapiro essentially speaks in favor of women...if that isn't evidence for the lunacy of the trans agenda.

A format like Question Time would work - with audience members able to send questions in advance.

It wouldn't cover everything but it would be start. Also, make sure the people on the platform are not less informed than the invited audience. It was tedious having to listen to all those boring speakers. Ditum was the only one I thought was really saying something. Even Greer was waffling a lot of shite - but I did like it when she got all vulgar and said "a man without a cock" in that blunt Aussie manner.

I think you're right

I don't think the presentation of such complex matters should start with 'a debate'. People need to be able to speak without interruption / be interviewed responsibly first and then debate may become possible.

Victoria Derbyshire is really bright I think. Shame about the soft focus trans kids stuff. Waste of her intelligence.

The BBC may have drunk the kool aid but it would never have broadcast this debate. For a start, it wouldn't dare. It wants this story to go somewhere far away for a very long time. Secondly, it would have tried to look fair. It would have had someone like Victoria Derbyshire who seems to be pretty pro trans but at least with a bit more of a clue. And a lot more of a clue about balance. The problem is that C4 doesn't care about balance and never has, so Cathy Newman isn't used to it.

I don't think C4 would be the place to hold a respectful, open debate - they've demonstrated that they're incapable outside of the news slot. BBC2 would be a better bet. But then the BBC have totally drunk the kool aid.

I don't know which channel would host tbh

Maybe they could bring in a better production company?

It's not a men's issue is it?
James Kirkup in The Spectator
(extract)
Stephen Doughty MP, "meanwhile, describes as “extreme” and “hate material” an article which observes that some people lobbying for changes in the name of transgender people are advocating things that might not be in the best interests of children. I have never met Doughty but have generally heard good things about him from colleagues: bright, committed, thoughtful and so on. So I must assume that he was having an off day when the committee met last week. It happens to us all, after all.

Surely a bright, thoughtful chap like him didn’t mean to imply that it was his job as Member of Parliament to tell newspapers what they can and cannot write? Surely he had no intention of acting as if it is in any way appropriate for a politician to decide what is and is not acceptable for journalists to say, and how they say it? And I can only hope that it was by a simple accident that he singled out by name a female journalist and suggested that her employers stop her saying the things that she thinks – because Doughty happens not to like her saying those things?"
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

It's not a men's issue is it?

Mike Wendling an assistant editor at BBC Trending (team devoted to exploring the politics of global social media) interviewed on Woman's Hour:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3233455-R4-Womans-Hour-the-manosphere-Incel-social-media-and-misogyny

Gary Younge The Guardian
(extract)
"After the Toronto attack, there should be a debate about toxic masculinity, and the issues of identity and rage that turn so many men towards violence... continues
...They think feminism will destroy them. But in fact it is their greatest chance of liberation, since the less women are forced to conform to preconceived notions of femininity, the more space there is within masculinity for them to be themselves."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3232989-Gary-younger-Toronto-article

Tom Daley:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3230370-Tom-Daley-in-The-Times-trans-women-athletes-have-to-have-testosterone-levels-which-are-often-lower-than-natural-female-athletes-so-its-hard-to-compete

Ben Shapiro:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3231439-Now-Biological-Women-Will-Never-Win-a-Marathon-Ever

It speak volumes there were no actual men on the panel . It's not a men's issue is it?

Brendan O’Neill gave a speech at Oxford this week, as recorded on Spiked:
(extract)
"Say the unsayable
This week, to the horror of student campaigners, Brendan O’Neill was invited to speak at a dinner at The Queen’s College, Oxford. This is what he said.

It is my sincerely held belief that a man can never become a woman. That no matter how many hormones he takes, or operations he has, or fabulous outfits he buys, a person who was born male can never become female.
I accept a man can be a trans-woman. I accept the right of every man to claim to be a woman. And to change his name to a woman’s name, if he likes. And these trans-women should of course enjoy the same rights as every other citizen: the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to work. But to my mind, they are not women. The slogan ‘Trans women are women’ is a lie. This is my sincerely held belief.
Recently, however, this belief has become virtually unutterable in respectable society. It has become tantamount to heresy. To deny that men can become women is the modern equivalent of denying that a wafer of bread and a cup of wine became the flesh and blood of Christ during Mass. If you deny the magic of transgenderism, you will be subjected to a similar wild-eyed fury that was once visited upon those who denied the magic of transubstantiation...

...Witness how feminists who question the magic of transgenderism are hounded off campuses and blacklisted by the NUS. These feminists are referred to by the most awful names online: bitches, cunts, whores. Or TERFs. TERF, meaning trans-exclusionary radical feminist, has become the most common insult hurled at these blasphemous women. TERFs are blacklisted by student officials, most recently at Bristol University. They have been physically prevented by trans activists from holding public meetings. They have been violently attacked: last year trans activists assaulted a 60-year-old grandmother, or TERF, to give her the dehumanising name they gave her as they punched her in the face...." continues here
www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/a-manifesto-for-heresy/21379#.WvTEfIgvw2z

Current discussion about this speech & : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3245540-The-slogan-Trans-women-are-women-is-a-lie-This-is-my-sincerely-held-belief

Whittle's twitter post

I don't think C4 would be the place to hold a respectful, open debate - they've demonstrated that they're incapable outside of the news slot. BBC2 would be a better bet. But then the BBC have totally drunk the kool aid.

I don't know which channel would host tbh

Is there any point in writing to channel 4 and asking for a new debate. Can anyone suggest how to contact Rose and co and ask for a debate with ordinary people, informed but but super star Olympians!

I would love their to be some set questions or 'propositions' that people could engage with. Eg "Self id will increase the risk to trans women and women of it comes into force."

I'd love to hear the Girl Guides UK, or whatever their name is now, defending their position to include natal boys in tents with girls.

Stephen Whittle also said that the audience was told to cheer and boo. And lots of guests were invited and told they'd be given space to speak and weren't.

The whole thing was a set up, designed to cause maximum friction by C4. And a woman has been suspended from her political party because of it.

Posie Parker said on twitter that Cathy Newman told the audience to engage and that the heckling was asked for. (Although maybe the interpretation of engage was different to that Newman expected). She also says she was told she would be asked a question, which she wasn't

The fact that so many people turned up, willing to speak is a sign that they are willing to discuss this and thrash things out. There should be a new debate held with a new chair who doesn't freeze like a rabbit in the headlights.

We've been robbed!

Oh yes I spotted Rose too. Some great people were right at the front.

Such a shame none got to speak. What a waste.

Rose was there too, she is fabulous, and a trans woman and very articulate, unlike Jenner who was boring.

Thanks Ereshkigal.

Out of interest anyone who saw the 'documentary' (misuse of that word) think it interesting the two trans women ended up both fancying Howie the lesbian? I think at the end they all felt a connection as people and it seemed that 'gender' mattered less. Or it certainly seemed to to Saffron. Which I felt was a good sign.

Sorry I am being rude and didn't rtft.

I just watched the debate - and OH MY GOODNESS Cathy Newman was out of her depth wasn't she?

She was so shit I could tell it was just nerves and she kept asking Jenner to speak even though Jenner had sod all to say - just talking pampered luvvie celeb anecdote bollocks at a slow, slow pace which Cathy Newman obviously found hypnotic and relaxing.

It was pointless. Why did they ask an audience of invested people to attend if they weren't asked any questions? Stephen Whittle was there as was Dr Radfem, Julia Long, Hannah from Man Friday - it could have been such a great debate. What a wasted opportunity letting Bergdorf and Jenner prattle along endlessly.

Perhaps it was the set up that made Cathy Newman freeze - being surrounded by the audience like that - she really cocked that up big time.

Arghhh I just watched the debate as had it recorded !! This has all likely been said but I just need a fucking rant !!
I had to turn it off !! Honestly I despair ! I should add because I feel I should I'm not anti trans . I just worry were this is heading particularly with self id .

Any decent conversation was just talked over wasn't it . " I worry self Id could be abused" somehow equals = " you are lumping all trans people with abusers " HOW???? That's literally not what she said is it !!

I get they have an agenda , they are a minority and will do whatever it takes to back themselfs but for the love of fuck don't just dismiss logical argument !

It speak volumes there were no actual men on the panel . It's not a men's issue is it . Imagine a ( albeit strange ) scenario were male to female trans were arguing they wanted to identify as women but still want the right to use the men's toilets . Imagine the uproar then . Would never happen anyway .

Biological women - the lowest in the pecking order, the first to be dismissed and to blame for everything , ever since time began.

Fuming