Dirty protest over Somerville College, Oxford’s gender‑neutral loos

WPUK speech,
'Professor Clara Greed is Professor of Inclusive Urban Planning at the University of the West of England, Bristol, and a specialist in toilet provision with particular emphasis upon women's needs'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD92aLqgtTA

More importantly, it will mean that for those questioning their gender identity, they are more able to determine who they are, without fear of being marginalised as a consequence of socially constructed gendered signage."

Oh of course. Heaven forbid women should put their own needs and feelings first.

If sink areas were open like in the picture above, they'd probably be cleaner as well.

One hopes that everyone will feel more comfortable discussing traditionally gendered issues, such as periods, increasing our understanding and ability to sympathise with one another.

And for those women who have no desire to talk to people of the opposite sex (other than, perhaps, partners and/ or children), I do hope she will forgive me if I say fuck off with your "hope". Many women, for a variety of reasons, want privacy.

"a man and a woman using cubicles beside each other will be the norm. One hopes that everyone will feel more comfortable discussing traditionally gendered issues, such as periods, increasing our understanding and ability to sympathise with one another. More importantly, it will mean that for those questioning their gender identity, they are more able to determine who they are, without fear of being marginalised as a consequence of socially constructed gendered signage."

‘Hey, you in the next cubicle! How’s your period coming along?’

‘Same as ever. How’s the prostate?’

‘Fine. Isn’t it great we can get together and talk like this over a cubicle wall?’

‘Sure is! How about a courtesy flush?’

Pratical advice. Loos near places where there is a lot of drinking going on: football grounds; college bars, University rugby clubs etc should have urinals. Blokes drinking pints seem to have a fixed capacity. After a certain point it needs to be pee'd out as at the same rate as more comes in. Men who have drunk large volumes need to access the loo quickly. And their aim may well be impaired. Long queues and many drunk men wont be able to hold it in.

What are we putting our girls through.

This isn't about the needs of children Repeal, don't be silly .

Actually this has made me think that toilets do often have a way of opening them from the outside with a screwdriver or coin in the outside of the lock, which makes them insecure, though many do just have a bolt on the inside which children could get stuck in. I watched Clara Greed earlier linked from another thread at one of the women's meetings saying they had loads of research about women and children's needs around toilets that no one listened to, but now all of a sudden it's all changing to meet the needs without and reference to the actual evidence.

I remember the Oxford toilet threads. Wasn’t there a massive ‘re-education’ programme between November and January.

With regards to floor to ceiling unisex cubicles is there not an issue there with children locking themselves in? Thinking further are the not issues with more than one person locking themselves (or being locked in) a cubicle?

I just don’t like unisex (without separate single sex) under any circumstances.

Oh right, periods are now ‘gendered’ and not a biological fact that lots of men do not and never will want to talk about.

Voyeurism, rape, and assault, of women is the price men are willing to pay to accommodate their transgender identified male brothers.

Ah here's yesterday's article from the student newspaper lauding the brave new world:

"a man and a woman using cubicles beside each other will be the norm. One hopes that everyone will feel more comfortable discussing traditionally gendered issues, such as periods, increasing our understanding and ability to sympathise with one another. More importantly, it will mean that for those questioning their gender identity, they are more able to determine who they are, without fear of being marginalised as a consequence of socially constructed gendered signage."

cherwell.org/2018/05/07/colleges-must-get-on-board-with-gender-neutral-toilets/

The cis were propagandized: the principal of the college endorsed the change, and the university's LGBTQ Society’s President attended the vote to make sure that it went the right way. To be fair, it was secret and they won on 80% of the vote.

Transactivists are absolutely dogged. Somerville's earlier refusal might have encouraged other colleges to refuse also, and so they needed to reverse the decision to make the momentum unstoppable.

Wow, crome. I wonder why they voted it in just two months later after voting it out when some people are clearly still not happy with the idea.

"Gender neutral toilets impacting women? No one gives a shit.
Gender neutral toilets impacting men?
The world takes notice."

Indeed.

If they want to return to the toilet access available to women in the 1850s they could at least have the decency to admit that driving women out of the public sphere is now and always has been the goal.

It's all the same college.
Somerville College voted against in November:
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/11/27/oxford-college-votes-calls-gender-neutral-toilets-amid-fears/

Then it voted for in January:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5318473/Oxford-students-approve-gender-neutral-toilets.html
This is about so much more than signage, it is about recognising the detriment of gender binary spaces and the need for change. (Eilidh Wilson, Somerville’s Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Questioning Officer)

There was an Oxford college where the students managed to get a secret ballot, much to the chagrin of the people proposing the unisex toilets who objected to this but it was overruled. And the proposal was duly voted out.

Ah right thanks for that. I knew I remembered a story like that. Good to see that the attmpeted shaming people into voting the 'right' way didn't happen. Bet they were pissed off they did not get their way.

If toilets are designated unisex - the venue needs to commit to cleaning them more regularly.

better still, just leave things as they are and add a unisex option. for the tiny percentage of people who feel they need or want to use it.

it just doesn't seem complicated to me.

am sure I remember a thread about this vote, where people had decided that the vote could NOT be anonymous, in an attempt to get people to vote the 'right way'. might have been another college mind, my memory is a bit hazy. But that vote, was a bit of a farce tbh.

There was an Oxford college where the students managed to get a secret ballot, much to the chagrin of the people proposing the unisex toilets who objected to this but it was overruled. And the proposal was duly voted out.

In large buildings, the solution is so very simple.

Ladies toilets
Men’s toilets
Disabled toilets
Unisex toilets for any of the above

Having said that, new unisex toilets ought to have the sink and mirror inside the cubicle.

Sardine

Exactly

Men need urinals because much of the time they are only having a wee and if they can do that really quickly, so no queue

At least they had a vote before introducing it I suppose

I am sure I remember a thread about this vote, where people had decided that the vote could NOT be anonymous, in an attempt to get people to vote the 'right way'. might have been another college mind, my memory is a bit hazy. But that vote, was a bit of a farce tbh.

Disabled rights activists point out that their spaces were fought for, and shouldn't be taken away.

And rightly so. No reason for the disabled areas to be used just because a few people decide that they are not the sex that they are. Fight for their own spaces, is the answer. Not just taking over other random places.

My belief is that if we are changing spaces previously separated by sex, there should really be an opportunity for all stakeholders in society to both be aware of this and to have the opportunity to have their voices heard.

Some of these spaces eg loos / changing rooms etc may be being changed piecemeal into unisex/gender neutral provision through (in some cases) the effective lobbying / needs / wishes of a particular group.

[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225459-Primark-Coventry-challenged-for-asking-trans-woman-for-ID-before-allowing-entry-to-female-changing-rooms]]

In a recent article, Hannah Clark for example discussed the concerns which formed the basis for #ManFriday

" HC: We are a group of women who oppose the push towards self-identification, both in law and in practice. We are concerned that self-identification removes gatekeeping to women’s identity, protected spaces, services, and roles. It also denies biology and women’s lived experiences of sex-based discrimination and violence.

We also want to ensure that current sex-based exemptions in the Equality Act are applied. The current push to base GRA on self-identification [if adopted, the legislation would replace the term “gender reassignment” with “gender identity,” meaning that Gender Recognition Certificates (GRC) could be issued without any conditions, by a process of self-declaration alone] has caused a lot of companies and service-providers to jump on a self-identification bandwagon and create policies that allow people to use whatever facilities they opt to. We are asking for the exemptions in the Equality Act to be applied, so that companies and service-providers, like [retail stores with changing rooms], swimming pools, etc. to enforce the exemptions which would allow for sex to have primacy over gender and that state we can have spaces separated by sex"

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/04/09/interview-uk-women-self-identifying-men-challenge-proposed-changes-gra-part-manfriday/

Isn't this 'unisex loo one that is zoned 'men' and 'gender neutral?

No, well the urinal section is zoned men but otherwise it's altogether. There's a separate disabled/family toilet just at the entrance too.

During college I worked part-time in a famous motorway cafe (which specialised in breakfasts)... as a 17 year old women, the need for urinals in men's public loos was pretty obvious to me when I was rotored for cleaning duties!