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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 06/05/2018 11:08

Have just grassed you up for banning them @MNHQ

They said "Mumsnet you left us no choice"

I think you are supposed to hang your heads in shame Grin

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/05/2018 05:22

Re the M word - I thought it was the variation of Mongolia that is not on - not moron. Am I correct in that assumption?

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/05/2018 05:20

@HebeMumsnet 's a star - and I like her sense of humour - btw the stationary cupboard is really nice. I also found another potential Gulag site as well:)

Seriously - the mods are obviously doing a great job and are under pressure - the problem is I don't understand what pressure. IE where is the increased moderation workload coming from? Who/what is causing that? All I read is it's us - which tbh doesn't make sense. So there must be something else at play.

I put a post up regarding weaponising the complaints system and the importance of discerning between usual complainants, unusually persistent complainants and unusually, unreasonable complainants. Many organisations, including the police, find an increasing percentage of their workload is being spent on complaints generated by the latter group (who use agents like MPs, media etc to create rolling thunder trains). I can't help but think this may be at play here with the MN workload - that a very small group, largely external, are causing enormous amounts of work, by weaponising the complaints system and bringing others agents into play to amplify their unreasonable demands.

Therefore MN are cowed into thinking they have a problem with the FWR board and must therefore "tone it down" to stop it becoming a focus of media reports and speculation. MN won't want that constant media spotlight and unrelenting accusations of "transphobic MN" and also won't want to be in the firing line for a vexatious legal case brought by said group against them - it's not good for their brand.

The solution other organisations have found to the issue I outlined is to treat that minority group differently i.e. to handle them differently to the other two categories, often by firmly rebutting their assertions. It is also recommended to stop access to services for those complainants. The worse thing to do is try and appease them as they use that to flood the organisation with even more unreasonable demands. Organisations have to develop frameworks to deal with these types.

I think what's happening is a small group of unreasonable TRA complainants, like MRAs, are using other platforms to amplify their unreasonable demands and to bring pressure on MN. It won't get any easier until a court case is brought to sort out the legal framework. In the meantime MN want to get out of the spotlight and can't.

I don't see any answer other than firstly for us, as a whole, to ignore the provocations from Twitter and the media outlets and stop referring to them/posting about them (unless they are serious e.g. the recent doxxing). In other words, we don't become part of their orchestrated amplification. Secondly for us to focus on the main goal of discussing and preparing the arguments that refute the unreasonable assertions, as a legal case will come about soon, one way or the other. Thirdly to play the ball not the person even in SG's case. Talk about the lobbying behaviour of the organisation and the undue influence rather than the person(s). Take the identities out of the equation. Fourthly ignore known sealions.

From MN's perspective, not entertaining the claims of transphobia would be helpful - we largely do self mod reasonably well and I am amazed at the engagement and openness of diverse views here on FWR. Much provocation comes from sealioning and coercive control - as there are trolls who deliberately inflame and provoke (as in DV) by dismissing, ignoring, downplaying and minimising reasonable points of view- it would be good to see some OPs banned for those tactics - these are the concern trolls who don't contribute anything to the discussions but do inflame and unfortunately as in DV, the genuine OP can look like the problem as they are provoked unreasonably by unrelenting, covert, coercive control tactics. Perhaps some of this is being projected at the mods or being displayed in heated exchanges - a normal response to those tactics.

I can only manage myself by disengaging as soon as I feel angry - doesn't always work and can result in more stationery cupboard banishments through discharging it thru humour - but that's an easy price to pay - i.e. if some threads are "sin binned"!

thebewilderness · 07/05/2018 02:56

@leyat
Is this fawning? We have not had nay fawning for a few days and speaking for Millicent and myself it has been sorely missed.
Allow me to fawn back a bit by saying I think you brilliant.

OnTheList · 07/05/2018 02:44

Now people who have gender identity issues want to be able to use those spaces. What people who are mobility-impaired are really sensitive about is that the space they fought for becomes unavailable to them because of other usage. They are right to be sensitive about that.’

FFS, what is wrong with fighting for your own spaces?! Like others had to do? When its not wanting to take over female areas, ts trying to take over the disabled area. Fight for an added unisex area. Stop trying to take what others have worked for.

That article has made me irrationally (or rationally maybe...) angry. Sorry if this post comes across ranty, but my fucking god, this is annoying.

Battleax · 07/05/2018 02:13

I wasn’t suggesting that we’d ALL suggested it Broken. Obviously there are plenty of fellow feminists who haven’t made the suggestion.

Interesting that the issue has been part of “There have been no problems in Ireland” being debunked.

Amalfimamma · 07/05/2018 02:11

@JustABrokenDoll

Just look at the numbers in that article. I don't know if you know any of the campuses mentioned in the article, but none of them deserve that number of bathrooms, Never mind gender neutral ones. I am truly shocked at them spending that money on gn toilets and not on disabled ones,

JustABrokenDoll · 07/05/2018 02:07

@Battleax - I've seen quite a few feminists retweeting this article

extra.ie/2018/04/15/news/irish-news/disabled-toilets-gender-neutral?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ExtraSocial

Amalfimamma · 07/05/2018 02:06

@JustABrokenDoll

I haven't muted them. I quite enjoy reading their tweets and seeing the hole they are digging for themselves and their cause.

Long may it last.

The only thing that bugs me is MNHQ bowing down to them sacrificing it's users and target audience for people who have no interest in mn Never mind it's sponsors or advertisers.

JustABrokenDoll · 07/05/2018 02:01

@Amalfimamma - the account is still active for me too. Have you accidentally muted them?

  • Disclaimer: Muted might not mean what I think it means, I'm not very techy >
leyat · 07/05/2018 01:54

@thebewilderness just have to say I've been loving so many of your posts today :D

leyat · 07/05/2018 01:51

I don't want men in female only spaces however they identify. A substantial minority of men are predators, and this is just as true for those who identify as trans, most of whom remain fully male bodied.

Predatory trans identified males have done everything to women and girls that other predatory men have, there is no meaningful difference in terms of the potential threat. It is the same danger and women have to manage this threat around all male bodies. And turning spaces into unisex puts isn't an option either because it places women in the same danger. The only answer is an additional space, and where and when such spaces are demanded, and whether these demands are warranted or not, is something that should be down to trans people to fight for, just like women and disabled people have had to fight for what we need. Trans activists just try to co-opt our spaces and what we have struggled for, rather than fight for things themselves. We don't need to solve their problems for them, we just need to be clear on where we don't want to give up our hard fought for rights and leave them to fight for what they feel they need (imo)

Pratchet · 07/05/2018 01:42

Susie Green and whoever her coparent is make me shudder with horror.

thebewilderness · 07/05/2018 01:42

OlennasWimple

They said it wasn't them what done it and if it was them they didn't mean anything by it and it wasn't their fault and they have nothing to apologize for cuz they are just trying to make us all be the better people that we could be if we just submit, as is our nature.
Or maybe that was Loki's speech from the Avengers.

Amalfimamma · 07/05/2018 01:41

@DarthArts that is strange. Either Twitter is in the process of peakmumsnetting or the account owner is deleting tweets......

Amalfimamma · 07/05/2018 01:39

I admit that when I first signed up and was learning about the TRAs agenda I did say to use the disabled loos to one of the pro tea users when asked "If not the ladies then where"

I got my arse handed to me by so,e of the other users and I apologise for my suggestion.

If males do not want to use the men's, and females do not want to use the ladies then there should be a dedicated space for them. Be they trans or not. But the answer is not forcing everyone to use the ladies, therefore letting perverts and males with a hidden agenda into our space (to clarify I did not mean trans here but those who are abusing of the self I'd line of thought)

DarthArts · 07/05/2018 01:37

@Amalfimamma

How odd. It's definitely still active for me.

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leyat · 07/05/2018 01:36

No they didn't apologise for the MN users affected, they just tried to twist it by saying they didn't threaten anyone, when that wasn't the accusation.

Re disabled loos, I think third spaces are a good response to the idea that trans people don't want to use spaces that correlate to their sex, i.e. a gender neutral space, but that shouldn't be a take over of any other spaces like disabled spaces, rather they should have to make their case and fight to secure spaces for themselves as a group.

Battleax · 07/05/2018 01:35
Smile

Time I was in bed too.

Weezol · 07/05/2018 01:33

I can back Battleax on this. I've seen plenty of co-opting of disabled facilities as the fabled 'third space' on Twitter and IRL.

Amalfimamma · 07/05/2018 01:33

@DarthArts

Checked with 3 different accounts, from different devices and got the same message 🤔

Greymisty · 07/05/2018 01:31

I have seen "use the disabled toilet" on feminism threads many times. It might just be one poster with that view tho and they have said it more than once-I don't keep track of names.

Interesting thread but i am off to bed Smile night all

OnTheList · 07/05/2018 01:30

Oh yeah, I am not saying it has not been said. Just I haven't seen it. I can well imagine it, given how little regard some have for disabled loos in the first place.

OlennasWimple · 07/05/2018 01:30

I didn't see the posts before Hebe got busy with the delete button, but did any of them say whether Nothing had apologised to the MNers affected by the ill-advised Twitter account? TBH that's the only question I'm interested in having answered - and anything other than a fulsome and honest apology clearly shows the individual up to be a truly awful person with very little actual care for the site and its users (despite claims to the contrary)

Battleax · 07/05/2018 01:28

have not seen any feminist suggest transpeople use the disabled loos.

Nevertheless, it has been said. Particularly on Twitter. Obviously it’s an extension of the “third space” line of thought.

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