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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cotton ceiling?

87 replies

Freespeecher · 06/05/2018 09:33

I'm ok with most of the terminology on here but this one has me beat.

Anyone care to help a fellow out?

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Ticketsfrom · 15/05/2018 19:29

Don’t be angry Hygge. This isn’t an issue for lesbians. The only ones who seem to be making a big deal out of it are the odd trans woman that none of us have heard of and straight feminists. It’s not an actual real life issue for any lesbian I know .

DJLippy · 15/05/2018 18:40

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3246838-Lesbians-are-Legends-Vote-in-the-Guardian-Pride-Power-List

If you want to vote for GC lesbians in the Guardian pride award please follow this link....

lovetheway · 15/05/2018 18:14

Charley I love your post!

Hygge · 15/05/2018 17:27

This makes me really angry.

As others have said, I am not a lesbian.

But no woman has to justify why she doesn't want to have sex with somebody else.

And if you're going to be a dick about why a woman doesn't want to have sex with you (and especially if you make a YouTube presentation about why she's wrong to turn you down), you've just confirmed to her another good reason why she should avoid you.

Never mind the penis, the fucking ego that it takes to do that is repelling enough.

Ticketsfrom · 15/05/2018 16:51

Oh, and personally, I am absolutely NOT attracted to penises, no interest in having sex with someone with one. But nor I'm I feeling any pressure to do so, or feeling guilty or bigoted for saying that either. I won't be having sex with anyone any time soon because I feel I should. And young lesbians are far more bolshy about this sort of thing than me in my experience

Ticketsfrom · 15/05/2018 16:49

I've had some straight feminist friends ask me about my experience of the 'cotton ceiling' , upset on my behalf, and - as a lesbian born a woman etc. I have ZERO experience of this. So I started asking my gay/lesbian friends - and we live in a very trans friendly city, know many trans people - none of them knew what it was. None of have heard of trans women putting pressure on gay women, or had any experience at all about it. Nada.
I'm wondering if it's one of those chatboard/media myths that exist like scissoring being a thing that lesbians do...

leggere · 10/05/2018 21:51

Well that was interesting CharlieGrin But I know what you mean, sort of. Don't think you're allowed to say weird people though, free speech is on it's way out!

CharlieParley · 10/05/2018 20:14

I do wonder if any of these people are at all monosexual. Or have actual relationships with actual people. Coz the argument they make against a female homosexual orientation that excludes males is that once you become romantically involved with someone, their genitals cannot be a dealbreaker unless you are a terrible transphobe.

I'm going TMI here just to illustrate a point, so please forgive me for the personal anecdotes to follow (and for how shallow I was in my youth).

I am attracted to men, fairly manly men at that. If I dated a bloke and then come sex time found out they did not in fact have a penis but a vagina instead, I would indeed be completely turned off. Utterly and completely.

In the case of a lesbian dating a transwoman with a functioning penis this would be even harder to imagine. They'd be extremely unlikely to pass as female having gone through puberty etc. But as transmen tend to pass better, let's assume I hadn't a clue before sex time.

I know finding female genitalia or a replica of male genitalia where I expect to find fully functioning male ones would turn me off because a) dishonesty is a complete turn off to me and I would expect to be told in advance and b) much smaller things have completely killed any attraction I've felt for guys before.

Such as the time that after dancing around each other for weeks and fancying the guy like crazy and dreaming of nothing but going out with him, when he finally, finally leant in for the kiss, his nose kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger and I literally run off after saying sorry I can't. Never told him why, it was too stupid after all, but I was completely cured. Not a shred of attraction left.

But fair enough, that was before going out with the guy so how about this relationship: Been going out with this one for quite a few weeks. Lovely dude, romantic, attractive, attentive. Went swimming one sunny day, diving in the lake, canoodling. Until I see a bogie had caught in his moustache. It was like a switch had been flipped in my brain. That was the end of that relationship.

Or one of my great loves, dumped me and broke my heart, then wanted to get back together after we wrote to each other for years (actual letters, sigh, how I miss that). Anyway, we met. And I was so excited, so in love, already planning the night... No idea what happened to me, to him, but it was without a doubt the second most boring date I've ever been on. I couldn't get away fast enough. He was completely confused of course and I couldn't exactly say what had killed off the spark. But dead it was.

So for these weird people to think that something as major as the wrong genitals couldn't possibly turn you off if you were romantically involved, it makes no sense to me given the nose, the bogie and the mindnumbing boredom that killed it off for me.

Bowlofbabelfish · 10/05/2018 16:45

I wonder if actual female lesbians are allowed to only sleep with actual female women on the grounds that penises trigger their dislike of penises?

Or is that too radical?

God I feel so, so sorry for and angry on behalf of lesbian women. Utter madness

AllyMcBeagle · 10/05/2018 16:40

So have I got this right, very confused? Rileyself is a person with a penis who feels he is a woman. Right so far? Riley wants to date women, therefore Riley is a lesbian with a penis? Riley thinks all lesbians without penis should date lesbians with penis otherwise they are transphobic? But therefore, it must also be transphobic if all lesbians with penis (such as Riley) won't date other lesbians with penis?! Have I got this right?

That's all correct, although Riley and other lesbians with penises would probably say that they don't have to date other lesbians with penises if it triggers their dysphoria about their own body..

leggere · 10/05/2018 16:36

I'm learning MrGHardy, slowly but surelyWink

MrGHardy · 10/05/2018 16:10

"But therefore, it must also be transphobic if all lesbians with penis (such as Riley) won't date other lesbians with penis?! Have I got this right?"

Answer: "Ofc I would date lesbians with penis, I just haven't found one I am attracted to yet."

Every. Single. Time.

ps although ofc there's also transwomen that date other transwomen with penis.

Destinysdaughter · 10/05/2018 15:51

It's like that old joke, man feels like he's a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Except it's not funny anymore... ( was it ever funny?)

leggere · 10/05/2018 15:45

So have I got this right, very confused? Rileyself is a person with a penis who feels he is a woman. Right so far? Riley wants to date women, therefore Riley is a lesbian with a penis? Riley thinks all lesbians without penis should date lesbians with penis otherwise they are transphobic? But therefore, it must also be transphobic if all lesbians with penis (such as Riley) won't date other lesbians with penis?! Have I got this right?

Juzza12 · 10/05/2018 15:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ereshkigal · 10/05/2018 14:45

this misgendering avoidance is pretty fucking difficult>

To be honest I think using this approach to work around it highlights even more that we don't believe in it, which is a good thing.

HotRocker · 10/05/2018 13:54

Being insulted and attacked because I’m not attracted to and don’t want to have sex with people with penises, I’ve had that before.
Being told that my sexuality isn’t real, I’ve had that before.
Being told that I should learn to love Dick, I’ve had that before.
It all sounds very Familia indeed. You can put a dress high heels and make up on it all you like, misogyny, homophobia and male entitlement all look the same to me.

I can officially say, as a lesbian, that if I am ever faced by any of this bullshit, I will tell them to fuck right off. That goes for pretty much all of the lesbians I know as well.

CharlieParley · 10/05/2018 13:29

but Rileyself has quite a ring to it. I might try this next time.

Maryz · 10/05/2018 13:15

The link to Riley's videos led me down a rabbit hole, leading to which must be the most narcissistic I've seen - Riley manages to conflate disabled people, fat people, gay people, black people and pretty much everyone else, and insult the lot of them Hmm

As an aside I've realised that when Riley describes Rileyself as "gay" Riley means Riley is attracted to women with vaginas, though Riley seems to be trying to convince Rileyself that Riley might at some stage be attracted to a woman with a penis, provided that woman with a penis was attractive enough obviously Hmm

[absofuckinglutelybefuddled]

YetAnotherSpartacus · 10/05/2018 12:04

An entire article on how to have 'lesbian' sex and it only concentrates on one participant's pleasure -- that of the person with a penis. There's nothing about things you could do together or even the hint that sex might be a mutually pleasurable activity. Only one person's pleasure is thought of

Yep. And you can be sure that it will be given to lesbian women as 'education'.

CharlieParley · 10/05/2018 11:45

That reddit thread was incredibly upsetting. I read the uncensored version of it and it's shocking how homophobic these cotton ceiling trans people and their allies are.

The OP stated that although she wholeheartedly believes TW=W, she is only attracted to born females. She is exhorted to try to overcome her genital "preference" (some call it prejudice) and told in no uncertain terms that being monosexual as she calls it is transphobic and all that on a forum for lesbians.

The moderators deleted almost all comments agreeing with her and all comments saying that TW are male therefore it's no surprise she's not attracted to them.

The thing is though that she really does seem to believe deep down that TW=W as she states in the discussion that she has tried having sex with post-op TW many times and found that neo-vaginas just do not sexually arouse her (sorry for the TMI). In the eyes of the people now in control of this lesbian discussion forum, this is unadulterated transphobia.

I read her post in that vein - that she tried so very hard to love TW but has now decided to stop going against her nature and stick to females instead. Well, that is not allowed.

I don't understand the world I live in anymore. How is it suddenly okay again to be this homophobic? And all of the posters disagreeing with her do so convinced they are progressives and she is an evil transphobe.

I've come across too many young lesbians now facing this pressure, it's heartbreaking. Can lesbians even find support anymore in LGBT groups?

AngryAttackKittens · 10/05/2018 11:35

I would be too, it's not a happy moment for young women in terms of sex and relationships in general even before you get to the trans nonsense.

leggere · 10/05/2018 11:23

They really need help, just in my opinion of course. Think I've just transpeaked, I'm fuming and I've had enough!(trying really hard not to swear)!! Dd is a strong young woman but has a personality disorder and sometimes easily led. I'm scared for her, it's as simple as that. Bloody scared!

AngryAttackKittens · 10/05/2018 11:07

I think those of us who're bisexual and not interested in sex with trans people may be even more evil than lesbians from Riley's perspective.

leggere · 10/05/2018 11:03

DD (26) is bi, but leaning slightly more towards women. (think she's still making her mind upSmile). However, she only wants to date men who are................erm, men. Not a man who feels they are a woman. Would this be acceptable to Riley?