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Posie: truthcrime harassment continues

344 replies

Pratchet · 06/05/2018 08:42

Susie Green from Mermaids has appealed against the CPS decision not to pursue Posie.

Posie described truthfully what Susie Green did to her child in Thailand at the age of sixteen: surgery involving the removal of genitals, a decision so shocking to the Thai government they raised the age bar for such operations to 18.

A woman is being pursued and harassed for telling the truth. Can we show as much support as possible please.

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Italiangreyhound · 08/05/2018 03:13

Just watched Max...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7S5aoHk3PI&app=desktop

Poor Max, I wish her well in the future... Thanks

cromeyellow0 · 08/05/2018 01:47

@ALittleBitofVitriol
Oh that Dr Crane, well done for catching the connection! What a tragic story.

BewitchedBotheredandBewildered · 08/05/2018 01:24

Sorry, can't read whole thread now.

Wouldn't wish this on anyone but total support for Posie.

More than happy to up financial contribution if necessary.

Pratchet · 08/05/2018 00:50

Thanks Jelly, mine too.

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Pratchet · 08/05/2018 00:50

I think the screenshot is clear enough.

Better access to mental health care is a confounding variable. Unless you compare to a cohort of non transitioned men who had the same access to better mental health care. The finding in the screenshot stands. It's clear.

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jellycat · 08/05/2018 00:37

My comment was addressed to SupermatchGame BTW.

jellycat · 08/05/2018 00:36

That is contradictory. The author also states:

For only assigned men who had transition 1973-2003 they had committed more crimes than cis women and more violent crime than cis women. The number of transwomen who had comited crime during this period was 32, and the number who had comitted violent crime were 14. Most likely some of the 32 transwomen who had comitted a any crime had also comitted a violent crime sop you can not add the numbers. Having a male pattern means that they did not differ regarding any crime or violent crime if compared with cis men.

The rest of the text is confusing, but the author seems to be suggesting that the later group showed less criminality because they had better access to mental health care. So that would suggest that ongoing access to good mental health care is required. Which in the UK at the moment is hardly a foregone conclusion.

Pratchet · 08/05/2018 00:34

#science

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Pratchet · 08/05/2018 00:31

Do you mind me not typing it all out

Posie: truthcrime harassment continues
OP posts:
GardenGeek · 08/05/2018 00:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GardenGeek · 08/05/2018 00:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 08/05/2018 00:27

You have not provided any reputable, verifiable sources for me to investigate.

SupermatchGame · 08/05/2018 00:24

Fair enough. It's late. I just pasted. Here is the important bit:

If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 08/05/2018 00:20

Word salad. That is all.

SupermatchGame · 08/05/2018 00:14

Steady Pratchet..... don't go spreading misinformation. That Swedish study found no increase in criminality in trans women compared to non trans women for those treated after 1989. Here is the researchers own words in recent ama (you surely know this?). No time to edit so just copy and paste:

[–]CeciliaDhejneHelmyMD | Karolinska University Hospital in Sweden[S
Regarding criminality there are only results from either both trans women and trans men and displayed for the whole period 1973-2003 and for the periods of 1973-1988 and the 1989-2003. If one is only intrested in transwomen data is only available for the whole period. For only assigned men who had transition 1973-2003 they had committed more crimes than cis women and more violent crime than cis women. The number of transwomen who had comited crime during this period was 32, and the number who had comitted violent crime were 14. Most likely some of the 32 transwomen who had comitted a any crime had also comitted a violent crime sop you can not add the numbers. Having a male pattern means that they did not differ regarding any crime or violent crime if compared with cis men. However even if I can't say how it is for trans women specific one could see that if the whole group (tran women and trans men) are displayed together there is a very positive time trend. So after 1989 the transgender men and women together did not differ from cis gender men and women regarding comitting any crime or violent crime. This means that the trans population was not more criminal then the cis population after 1989. The actual number of any crimes for the transgroup is for 1973-2003 60, for 1973-1988 38 and for 1989-2003 22. The numbers of violent crimes are for 1972-2003 14, for 1973-1988 10 1989-2003 4.

My and co workers study can not answer why we saw an increased suicidality during the whole and first studied period. But notice that there was not an increase in suicide for the last period. Other studies mention below have showed that external factors such as minority stress contributes to suicidality in the transgender group. Thank you for your question and I am happy I was invited to AMA.Thank you for your question and I am happy I was invited to AMA.

I am aware of some of the misinterpretation of the study in Plos One. Some are as you say difficult to keep track since they are not published in scientific journals. I am grateful to friends all over the world who notify me of publications outside the scientific world. I do answer some of them but I can’t answer all.

I have no good recommendation what to do. I have said many times that the study is not design to evaluate the outcome of medical transition. It DOES NOT say that medical transition causes people to commit suicide. However it does say that people who have transition are more vulnerable and that we need to improve care. I am happy about that it has also been seen that way and in those cases help to secure more resources to transgender health care.

On a personal level I can get both angry and sad of the misinterpretations and also sometimes astonished that some researcher don’t seem to understand some basics about research methology.

And Previous interview with Cristan Williams:

Dhejne: The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.

SupermatchGame · 07/05/2018 23:54

Let's play... Guess the Non-Offence! It'll never catch on.

GardenGeek · 07/05/2018 23:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pratchet · 07/05/2018 23:21

Let's not forget the other findings about male criminal patterns retained after transition.

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ALittleBitofVitriol · 07/05/2018 23:20

SupermatchGame
Both.

SupermatchGame · 07/05/2018 23:10

If someone had had an agenda, they could have published something saying fgm had clear medical benefits.

Isn't that why it's important we have good research and as much evidence and scientific enquiry as possible? I think the NHS etc would say there is reasonable evidence for transition as you say. But I don't think you would get far trying to find evidence for FGM.

It helps some. It harms many.

Cecilia Dhejne the researcher who did the 2011 Swedish study that looked at pre and post op suicide has also done a large study in detransition. (An Analysis of All Applications for Sex Reassignment Surgery in Sweden, 1960-2010: Prevalence, Incidence, and Regrets). She said in a recent interview:

"I have done study regarding people who applied to legally change back to the sex they were assigned at birth. Between 1960-2010 681 individuals were granted a new legal gender in Sweden. 15 (2.2%) of those applied for reversal to the gender they assigned at birth. During the studied period we saw a significant decline and 11/15 of the regret applications were made of before 2000. The numbers are similar to other studies from Germany. We couldn’t study the reason for that they wanted to retransition. There could be many reasons one is that it was the wrong treatment but there are many others as you mention. Never the less I don’t find the numbers alarming if compared to other medical care they are infact good."

That's quite a small detransition/ regret rate. Likely there will be more as referrals increase especially in the UK where they have really gone up. Hopefully the more gnc role models there are the less likely young people will make the wrong choice.

I agree it's no panacea and there are problems but the research reports it works out more than not, even if not perfect. It's the lesser of 2 evils for some.

SupermatchGame · 07/05/2018 22:57

ALittleBit are we talking about long term post op transitioned women? Or the sorts of TRAs we saw on the video with julie bindel etc? Because yes I do see some male socialisation with them.

thebewilderness · 07/05/2018 22:54

They are just here to provide that "other perspective" so popular among misogynists.

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 07/05/2018 22:54

“Considering trans activists are scrutinising my every move I am not willing to discuss further details here.”

Very wise.

Finding the right lawyer is important and don’t hesitate to get second opinions.

gendercritter · 07/05/2018 22:35

FGM isn’t a treatment it’s a harmful illegal practice that isn’t done for medical purposes.

Except that millions of people around the world have, until probably recently, disagreed with that. Many mothers will have held their children down because they believe it has some medical or social benefit. Doctors and midwives will have gone along with that and told you it's cleaner/healthier. It really isn't that difficult to produce a scientific study to support whatever you believe. If someone had had an agenda, they could have published something saying fgm had clear medical benefits.

Physical/surgical transition has some medical support behind it as being beneficial in treating dysphoria. Now, I'm no expect in gender dysphoria but despite knowing it helps some, there are also people who detransiton or who go on to be as unhappy post surgery. So you can't say surgical transition is this uncomplicated treatment with proven benefits. It helps some. It harms many.

You are also neglecting to understand that sexual function can be harmed by surgical transition because surgery is a really crude tool. It leads to numbness, damage, infections in some cases. It would be worth you reading some accounts on a trans forum, supermatch. These surgeries go wrong a lot.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 07/05/2018 22:12

'Act like men' means displaying stereotypical male socialisation. Prominent among which is the objectification and dismissal of women.

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