State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

I do not believe you can change sex. A transwoman is not a woman, however I will respect a transpersson's legal and social status if they have gone to the trouble of transitioning as fully as possible. I don't ever misgender someone or use their 'deadnames' on purpose.
Registered sex offenders should not be allowed to legally transition. They should be treated as their biological sex.
Sex segregated places to remain - toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges, etc
I will never accept any attempt to be defined as anything other than a woman. I will also never stop referring to female anatomy and biology using the correct terms, and whenever I feel like it. If some people find that exclusionary or upsetting in any way then tough.
Every single individual has the right to decline dating or any degree of intimate contact with any other individual , no reasons or justification required.

To sum up the above.

You do not bring about social justice by undermining the fabric and framework that social justice was built upon.

If you do not understand the foundations on which social justice was built you can not achieve social justice.

It is a fragile thing. If you do not handle it with care or take it for granted you can destroy it.

One thing I find most disturbing is that young people see no problem with the methods being employed. Is that coming from ignorance, privilege or an attitude that the end justifies the means?

The answer to this particular question is important in its own right. It has different consequences depending on which it is.

My view is you can not legislate social thinking. Social attitudes have to change organically to be progressive. Attempts to legislate without consultation are dangerous particularly in this cases because this involves multiple minorities and vulnerable groups.

Not because its about identity, but because its about unintended consequences. This will change frameworks which leave certain groups and individuals who are already vulnerable even more vulnerable.

That isn't improving society which all attempts to legislate should have at their heart. This isn't about 'transphobia'. Not least because there is meaning to the term any more. It includes everything and in doing so includes nothing.

This is about something far wider. It is indicative of other parallel social changes currently happening. Its not something happening in isolation. Indeed in many respects its got nothing to do with trans rights. Its a political trojan horse. Indeed there are individuals and groups out there openly admitting this. Which is utterly terrifying. We ignore this at all our peril.

These more sinister 'trans allies' are anything but. They do not have the interests of the trans community at heart; they seek to exploit legislative changes.

This changes society from a free one to one which relies and encourages aggressive tactics as a means to lobby and achieve political goals. It moves it from one in which arguments are made, talked about and merits seen to one where the only thing that really matters is who is best connected and who is most manipulative. Intimidation moves front and centre in political circles. This does not favour minorities nor the vulnerable.

Safeguarding in general becomes harder in general in that political environment. Its not about 'protecting children from trans people' which it has been framed repeatedly in discussions. Its about how the wider cultural bubble this comes in, coupled with legislative proposals weakens frameworks. If you fear speaking the truth to power because of a culture of fear of offending (especially if that comes with legal bite) then things that should be reported are not. That's nothing to do with how you identify. The point is that identity politics in general, becomes a cloak or an excuse to hide behind. We no longer see nor judge on behaviour because of the fear of being regarded as prejudice.

There are also huge issues surrounding meaningful consent for similar reasons.

It brings ideology into medicine. That affects decision making - both ethically and financially. Whilst feelings in your head might be about your well being we are all still biological creatures. And nature does not recognise nor reflect the psychological to that extent. To ignore or be in denial of this is hugely damaging.

It takes us to a place where ideology is more important than enlightened thought and evidence. A scientific dark age where critical thought and analysis can not thrive because they are not valued because they are a deemed a threat.

Identity is such a tiny part if this. Its not about rights of trans people and ensuring they are not discriminated against. We are just led to believe it is.

The big issue us the tactics being used and what that does to society as a whole. Legislation in this atmosphere and culture takes on a different significance and meaning.

Ultimately all these forces acting together in parallel are a concern to women. They are relevant to each other for this reason. For example: You can not separate the incel movement from the trans movement. There is over lap; the how and why of that is a mute point. Its there. We must acknowledge thus, no matter how small this is. Trans people are at risk and potential victims if it, every bit as much as women for similar and differing reasons. To ignore this would be a huge folly and to show a gross lack of understanding of social change as a whole.

Reductive politics which tries to isolate policy making from society is nonsense. It is not prejudice to see this or to state the nature of the problem.

I fear in some ways that reducing it to 'I don't believe men can change sex' is not a huge amount different to a thought ending cliche like 'transwomen are women'. Its too simplistic and too restrictive. It does make it open to the accusation that its about prejudice.

For me, its about how social change is being pushed through every bit as much as what that social change is. That context matters hugely. When it is lost from the debate, you lose sight of other relevant issues.

I do feel there is a deliberate blinkering because lots of people see the moral intent behind it all. But this does not justify the means if the means have their own consequences. All this stuff about 'being the right side of history' is about turning a blind eye to the present by getting you to focus on the past. Its not that simple. Parallels from history can be found in less progressive quarters when you start to look at method rather than intent.

I don't know. I do know eyes are on this thread and their intent to censor and scream transphobia at all the people they are quoting is indicative of the problem. The problem is the method of enforcement and the belittling and devaluing of the experience and wider fears of women. These can not be removed from the conversation as being illegitimate. Women do not live in a bubble unconnected with all the other things going on in society.

We have sex segregation for all sorts of reasons but never to validate a male humans gender identity. The fact that TS/TIM/TRA exist doesn't alter the fact the women and girls want and need spaces for themselves.

Whoever you are, I see you.
I will be polite and friendly HOWEVER you present AS LONG AS you don't expect me to blur my own boundaries.
My boundaries are: females (women with GRCs and natal females) & children in my loos.
Males somewhere else.
That rule applies to dorms, changing rooms and hospitals.

Bars and social spaces area free for all.

However.. If there are spaces reserved for women such as all women shortlists then THAT'S ONLY open to natal women.

Don't call me cis. I will respect your pronouns ONLY if you respect all of the above.
If you don't then its WAR.

I WON'T ROLL OVER OR GIVE YOU MY SPACE.
I WON'T LET YOU DISRESPECT ME.

Transwomen yes. Self-IDs no.

This is an interesting thread but as it's half past one and I am more than slightly drunk it would be impolite to post facetious thoughts now.

Also: children matter. Their future health and well-being (including sexual pleasure and fertility) should be safeguarded and while I am unsure that the system of involving family court in the decision to medicate, which used to be the case in Australia, is the best one - because the family court system regularly puts children in harms way - I do think an extra layer of scrutiny is necessary.

My view of all this is because I have realised that if I was a child today, with "progressive" parents I might have gone down the hormone route.

I wanted to be a boy all my childhood; most strangers thought I was. I wore my brothers' clothes, had short hair, spent all my time with boys, desperately wanted to be able to pee standing up. I cried the day I had to start wearing a t-shirt playing football when all the boys could go topless.

As a teenager I hated my body, my breasts, periods. As an adult I never wear make-up, heels, "girly" clothes. I'm good at "male" pursuits, maths, map-reading, diy.

And yet I'm definitely a heterosexual woman and a mother - something that many of today's gender-non-conforming girls may never get a chance to be, and that makes me both angry and sad.

I'm also a youth leader with huge concerns for safeguarding

Gender is a social construct
Biology is science
It is impossible to be what you are not.

Wear what you like and express your personality with whatever clothing style, name or make up that you want.

I’ll be generous in person where it feels expedient.

My hard lines are:
Medical facilities
Sports
Scholarships
Sex (or gender if people use that term) segregated spaces
Safeguarding women and children.

I also suspect that you can share facilities with transgender or transexual people with no difficulty whatsoever but we have the chance now to legislate to deal effectively with the odd man with ill intent.

I do think we need women-only spaces. I cannot speak for women who have religious or cultural beliefs that prevent them using mixed spaces, but I think it is important that they are not marginalised because they cannot access mainstream society. I also share concerns about women's shelters etc. I think we need to be clear that all women need the right to a men-free space.

I do think that there should be a men's rights movement that deals with real issue men face. Even where those issues are caused by their own entitlement or inadequacies - they still should have support to be more reslient, less entitled, etc. The fact that men account for 75% of suicides bothers me.

I think the rise of narcissism in society is a real concern in this debate and in relation to womens' safety generally. A lack of respect for truth and evidence are also dangerous. I am not saying those seeking self-id are any more guilty of narcissism or disinformation than anyone else. I mean that this debate has been made toxic by this wider trend in society. Coincidentally I happen to think a rise in narcissism is damaging women generally.

I find it difficult to articulate in words how the proposed changes are linked to the fact the system is stacked against women and how the changes will reinforce that reality. I don't believe this is an intended consequence of the quest for self-id. But the unintended consequence is still a harm.

I don't accept that it's possible to change sex. Ever.

I do accept that there are some people who for their own personal reasons feel the need to identify in opposition to their actual biological sex, and I firmly believe those people are entitled to the same human rights as any other - not to be discriminated against etc in terms of housing, employment, health care etc.

I do NOT believe that a male-born person who 'identifies as a woman' somehow mystically is or could ever become a woman - I abandoned that kind of magical thinking when I was 6/7 years old, when I accepted that neither Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy were real; I applied those same early critical thinking skills to the Catholic indoctrination I was subjected to, abandoning any belief in transubstantiation when I was aged 8/9. I'm not about to capitulate & abandon those early-developed critical thinking skills more than 40 years later, just to validate other peoples' subjective 'identities'/ personalities when they don't correlate in any way, shape or form with objective, biological reality.

I have, however, always treated any trans people I know IRL (which has been quite a few over the years) with respect, and will usually use 'preferred pronouns', unless someone's being a complete arse - it's only happened a few times, but when it does, don't expect me to be 'nice', because I won't be.

I'm personally ok accepting males who've undergone full SRS & hormone therapy into most women's spaces/services, but recognise that's not my call to make, as other women may have genuine reasons for holding different opinions on that, and I'd never seek to over-rule or devalue their perspectives.

Men can never be women or vice versa. They will not respect women's views on where they are welcome so should never lay claim to our spaces. I believe that people are not born in the wrong body...we may not like the one we have but its better to accept it than to make ludicrous changes to it. You may need help to accept yourself as you are! Not as a fantasy that turns you on. Fine to dress as you want but not fine to force others to believe something that is not true. Until this is accepted women will not make men welcome.

This is a really interesting thread. These are my views:

You cannot change someone's sex, as nearly all their cells contain their sex chromosomes, which remain active notwithstanding manipulations of hormone levels in the adult.

I recognise a qualitative difference between transexuals with gender dysphoria and trans people. I firmly believe transexuality to be a mental illness similar to anorexia. Meanwhile, other types of trans people seem to arrive at their particular position via a variety of routes, which may be influenced by both internal and external cues. Internal causes may also occasionally include mental illness (other than transexualism), personality disorder, autism, sexual fetishism, extreme extrovertism, and transvestism; external factors would include rigid gender roles, fashion, sexual abuse, social contagion, parental pressure and homophobia.

I think it's unfair to lump them all together apart from saying no male should invade female spaces unless unanimously agreed and invited by women.

Like others, I worry about children. Puberty blockers appear to do such enormous harm, since it is hard to predict who might otherwise desist, and patients are left sterile and inorgasmic. It seems to me that these children might never mature properly, mentally, emotionally or physically. That is horrifically abusive.

Canadian women seem to have lost the war on this, American women are losing it, it seems. Now the fight has arrived in Britain finally I am enthralled as to what will happen.

Self ID will remove sex segregated safe spaces for women. A man is born XY and remains XY no matter what, a woman is born XX and remains XX no matter what.

Put on a dress, make-up, heels whatever but don't encroach in women's spaces, they are there for a reason.

Call yourself transgender or transsexual but at the end of the day you cannot change your sex. For TIM's your 'vagina' is an inverted penis, it is not made from the same material as a natal vagina. You can't have periods, get pregnant, give birth, breastfeed, go through the menopause.

Woman is the root of female oppression and due to what we have suffered due to our sex we deserve to keep our title.

Stay out of woman's sport
Stay out of woman's refuges
Stay out of woman's prisons
Stay out of woman's changing rooms
Stay out of woman's toilets
Stay out of woman's single sex activities/groups

Do not demand we use pronouns you choose, that is making us lie, I won't lie.

TMI's want to claim everything women have fought for, erase us, displace us. NO!

Plcemark

Re women in men's spaces: it's up to men to solve that problem if they don't like it. We can't solve everything. Women have got enough to do keeping ourselves safe.

People should be allowed to wear whatever they want, present however they like, call themselves what they like, regardless of their sex.

Gender is a prison for both men and women and we should be seeking to abolish it.

Men can't become women and women can't become men.

But if some men like pretending they're women and some women like pretending they're men, that's fine by me as long as they're not doing it for a fraudulent or nefarious purpose.

If some people feel that they're the opposite sex and can get relief from their feelings of loathing their physical bodies by taking hormones and getting operations, then I think as a last resort the NHS ought to offer them that. But it should certainly not be a first port of call and definitely not for children who aren't even allowed a tattoo.

Men should not be allowed in women's spaces because they have a very long track record of being dangerous to women. If they pass enough that no-one actually thinks they're men, then fine, no-one's going to notice anyway, but I know that the problem with this is that a) it's unfair to those who don't pass and
b) it's very subjective: I've only ever met one transwoman who passed and that was only for about 20 minutes (a bit like when you meet a foreigner who speaks such fluent English that you don't notice they're not a native speaker until about 20 minutes into the conversation)

I don't care about women in men's spaces because
a) women don't have a long track record of being dangerous to men and
b) I think it's up to men really, to say whether they care or not.

Pronouns do not belong to you. They belong to the people who are talking about you. In the words of Robbie Burns, “O, wad some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as others see us" - You can identify as what you like, but you cannot force everyone else to identify you in the same way. You just cannot control people's perceptions of you and this insistence on owning the words others say about you, is one of the strangest, most sinister developments in modern activsm.

I don't believe men can become women or vice versa. I will be polite and humour their pronouns if they are reasonable people but I do not want make bodied people in women's spaces. Transsexuals who have transitioned as fully as possible are welcome in some women's spaces in my mind but since others may disagree them we should have a third space. Transwomen will always be men to me unless they pass incredibly well and I don't notice. I am very worried by the young activists who seem violent, misogynistic and frankly rather batty and unintelligent. I hate the way they bleat about offence constantly.I object most strong to their takeover of women's words and their performance of woman.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong on this, but I don't think that anyone is born in the wrong body or the wrong gender. It's a mental health condition that develops at some point during people's lives. With the modern trans movement, it's become a trendy identity for a lot of people who don't have dysphoria.

Nobody can change sex. Someone who has surgery and hormone treatment deserves to be treated with respect for their condition, but they haven't actually changed sex. This idea that we all have an internal gender and it's more important than biological sex is obviously dangerous and regressive, and needs to be challenged.

I have two x chromosomes and a reproductive system designed to produce eggs and bear young.
3.7 billion people are like me in this regard.
We make up half of the human race.
The other half of the human race are fundamentally different from us.
We are the half that have always suffered at the hands of the other half and we still do.
We deserve a name.
We deserve recognition.
We deserve rights.
We exist as objectively real people and no one can identify as us.
You either are one of us from conception and evermore or you are not.
Society should reject all efforts to redefine us in false ways.
But society has encouraged a lie instead.
The lie is intolerable.

No human can change sex.
Gender does not exist.
Transpeople have been sold a cruel lie and they have bought it. But like a pyramid scheme, the lie can only be sustained if more and more people buy the lie.
Some people will never accept the lie.
It is my hope that society will reject the lie and focus on ways to acknowledge reality and help those who struggle with it to come to terms with it, instead of trying to bend reality to fit desire.

If nobody stands up for biological science above identity politics then women's sports will be completely devalued in less than a decade.